Should the Knicks have retired Oakley and Starks's jerseys?

Should the Knicks have retired the jerseys of Charles Oakley and/or John Starks?

  • The Knicks should have retired Oakley's #34 and Stark's #3.

  • The Knicks should have retired Oakley's #34 but not Stark's #3.

  • The Knicks should have retired Stark's #3 but not Oakley's #34.

  • The Knicks should not have retired Oakley's jersey or Stark's.


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Rembrandt Brown

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I always thought that the second most important era in Knicks history meant enough to not just retire the number of Patrick Ewing, the greatest player in franchise history, but also the top two other players to define the best of what the Knicks were over the last 40 years.

Knicks Part With Oakley to Get Toronto's Camby
By SELENA ROBERTS
JUNE 25, 1998
NY Times

One Knick teammate who requested anonymity said last night that he ''was shocked that the organization would trade Oakley.''

When asked if he considered the public's outcry to the announcement, Grunfeld said, ''We have to do what we have to do for our team.''

The Knicks have to be concerned about public sentiment toward the 35-year-old Oakley, who was noted for his aggressive rebounding and head-first dives for loose balls since he arrived in New York in 1988.

Oakley has always been the first to say that the N.B.A. is a business-first proposition, but those close to him say that he will be upset about his trade to a noncontender.

With Camby, the Knicks are likely to move Larry Johnson back to power forward, altering the makeup of the frontcourt that was so familiar to Knick fans. Without Oakley's absence on the boards could mean more work for Patrick Ewing, who is coming off a season in which missed four months with a broken wrist.

The Oakley trade could have a similar impact on the Knicks, just as Mark Messier's departure had on the Rangers last season. Oakley, who does not have a no-trade clause, may not have always been close friends with his teammates but he was always well respected for his all-out effort on the court. He was considered a quiet leader and a role model to the younger players.

The deal matched almost perfectly under the cap. Oakley made $2.85 million this year and the 24-year-old Camby made $2.79 million.

Oakley was offered to the Raptors so the Knicks could get a chance at a young shot blocker and scorer like Camby.

Although Camby's knees have been fragile in his first two pro seasons, the Knicks are in need of a more active front-court player than Oakley. This need was magnified when they watched Indiana's Antonio Davis and Dale Davis block shots, grab rebounds and put down dunks as they eliminated the Knicks in the second round of the playoffs this year.

Oakley was attractive to the cash-strapped Raptors because he has one year left on his deal, even though he is scheduled to make $10 million in the balloon year of his contract next season. Although the Raptors believed in Camby, they feared losing him next summer when he is eligible to become a free agent. Oakley might not fit in with the Raptors' high-flying style, but he could be used for a future trade.

With their first pick, No. 38 over all, the Knicks selected DeMarco Johnson, a 6-8 forward from North Carolina-Charlotte.




Three-time NBA All-Star arrives for Starks, Mills and Cummings
Knicks Acquire Sprewell

NEW YORK, JAN. 21, 1999 - Latrell Sprewell, a three-time NBA All-Star and a 20.1 ppg career scorer, has been acquired by the Knickerbockers from the Golden State Warriors in exchange for guard John Starks and forwards Chris Mills and Terry Cummings, club president and general manager Ernie Grunfeld announced today.

In six seasons with Golden State, Sprewell, 28, owns career averages of 20.1 ppg, 4.7 apg and 4.3 rpg and .436 shooting. The 6-foot-5 Sprewell was an NBA All-Star in 1993-94, 1994-95 and 1996-97. In addition, he was an All-NBA First Team selection and All-Defensive Second Team pick in 1993-94, and an All-Rookie Second Team choice in 1992-93.

"Latrell is one of the top talents in the game, on both the offensive and defensive ends," said Grunfeld. "When you get the opportunity to improve your club with a three-time All-Star such as Latrell, you have to pursue it. We expect him to become an integral part of our team."

Sprewell, who scored a career-high 24.2 ppg in 1996-97 (fifth in NBA), had 21.4 ppg in 14 games for the Warriors in 1997-98. His contract was terminated by the Warriors on December 3, 1997, then reinstated by an arbitrator on March 4, 1998, following which he was suspended for the remainder of the season.

"We feel very strongly that Latrell's career will have a fresh, new start here in New York," said Grunfeld.

Starks, 33, is the all-time NBA Playoff leader with 175 post-season three-point field goals, and is the all-time Knicks franchise leader with 982 career treys. An NBA All-Star in 1993-94 and the League's Sixth Man of the Year in 1996-97, Starks averaged 12.9 ppg on .393 shooting in 82 games (10 starts) in 1997-98, going 130-398 (.327) from three-point range. He holds a 13.5 ppg scoring average in nine NBA seasons (eight with New York). Starks began his NBA career with the Warriors in 1988-89.

"As with any trade of this magnitude, you have to give to get. All three players contributed greatly to our winning tradition," said Grunfeld. "John, especially, was a key factor in the great success we have enjoyed over the last decade, and he was not just a very good player and a fan favorite, but a good friend as well. We will miss John, Chris and Terry very much, and wish them nothing but the best in the future."

Mills, 28, posted 9.7 ppg, 5.1 rpg and .433 shooting in 80 games (29 starts) for the Knicks last season. He was acquired from Boston just before the season began. The sixth-year pro has a career 12.0 ppg scoring average over four seasons with Cleveland and one with New York.

Cummings, 37, appeared in 30 games (one start) for New York last season, with 7.8 ppg, 4.5 rpg and .477 from the field. He was acquired from Philadelphia on Feb. 19, 1998 for Herb Williams and Ronnie Grandison. Entering his 17th NBA season, the 6-foot-9 Cummings is a two-time All-Star (1985, 1989). Owner of a 16.9 ppg career scoring average, he is currently 16th on the all-time NBA list in games played (1,111) and 33rd on the League's all-time scoring list (18,822, tied with Isiah Thomas).




Club sends Latrell Sprewell to New York

Warriors Acquire Starks, Mills and Cummings

OAKLAND, JAN. 21, 1999 - The Golden State Warriors have acquired guard John Starks and forwards Chris Mills and Terry Cummings from the New York Knicks in exchange for guard Latrell Sprewell, it was announced today by General Manager Garry St. Jean.

"We are delighted to have put some closure on what has been a very unique and difficult situation for our entire organization," said St. Jean. "The addition of a trio of quality veteran players will provide our team with some much-needed experience, which, we think, will prove invaluable to our young nucleus, including the likes of Erick Dampier and Antawn Jamison. Obviously, we wish Latrell success as he also begins a new chapter in his life and career."

Starks, 33, appeared in 82 regular season games with the Knicks last season, averaging 12.9 points and 2.7 assists in 26.7 minutes. The previous season (1996-97), he captured the NBA's Sixth Man of the Year award and was a member of the 1994 Eastern Conference All-Star Team. The nine-year NBA veteran began his career as a member of the Warriors during the 1988-89 campaign, when he appeared in 36 contests after signing a free agent contract with the club on September 29, 1988. The 6'5" Starks has averaged in double figures each of the last seven years, highlighted by a career-high 19.0 points during the 1993-94 season, when he helped guide the Knicks to the NBA Finals. He enters the 1998-99 NBA season boasting career averages of 13.5 points and 3.8 assists in 638 regular season games. Additionally, he is the NBA's all-time leader in playoff career three-pointers (175).

Mills, 28, appeared in 80 games last season with New York - his lone campaign with the Knicks - averaging 9.7 points and 5.1 rebounds in 27.3 minutes. Originally a first round choice of the Cleveland Cavaliers in the 1993 NBA Draft (22nd overall), Mills spent the initial four years of his NBA career in Cleveland, where he averaged a career-high 15.1 points during the 1995-96 campaign and led the Cavaliers in minutes played each of his last three seasons with the team. The 6'7" forward enters the 1998-99 season sporting career averages of 12.0 points and 5.3 rebounds in 399 regular season games.

Cummings, 37, appeared in 74 games last season with the Knicks (30 games) and Philadelphia 76ers (44 games), averaging 6.3 points and 3.8 rebounds in 16.0 minutes. The second overall pick in the 1982 NBA Draft by the San Diego Clippers, Cummings has enjoyed playing stints in San Diego, Milwaukee, San Antonio, Seattle, Philadelphia and New York during his 16-year NBA career, highlighted by 13 post-season appearances. He earned NBA Rookie of the Year honors in 1982-83, when he averaged a career-high 23.7 points, and has been a member of the All-NBA Second Team (1985) and All-NBA Third Team (1989). The 6'9" forward enters the 1998-99 season boasting career averages of 16.9 points and 7.4 rebounds in 1,111 regular season games, which ranks eighth on the NBA's active list.

Sprewell, 28, appeared in 14 games with the Warriors last season prior to being suspended for the remainder of the season on December 4, 1997.
 

Rembrandt Brown

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They NEED to RETIRE the ENTIRE TEAM. :giggle:

We're at damn near a half-century since the Knicks won a title. Fucking Archie Bunker wasn't on the air yet. It's dumb to act like nothing since then matters.

They brought a certain hardnosed identity to the team, and are somewhat integral to its success, but I'm gonna say no. I prolly give it to Oakley tho, not Starks.

hell, Starks cost em the 94 title :rolleyes2:

At least Starks helped get them to the finals! I disagree with "somewhat integral." Starks and Oakley were both absolutely integral to the golden age of Knicks basketball since the Russell and Chamberlain era NBA.
 

Rembrandt Brown

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For comparison, former Knicks coach Jeff Hornacek in Utah:

Hornacek's No. 14 to be retired
By Rich Evans
Deseret News sports writer
Published: September 25, 2002

Jeff Hornacek, the eagle-eyed shooting guard whose retirement left a hole in the Jazz lineup the team is still trying to fill, will be honored for his contributions to the team Nov. 19.

That night, at halftime of the Jazz's game against the Phoenix Suns, Hornacek's No. 14 jersey will be retired.

It will then hang in the Delta Center rafters alongside those of former coach Frank Layden and ex-players Mark Eaton, Darrell Griffith and Pete Maravich.

Hornacek played 477 games with Utah, averaging 14.5 points and 4 assists while shooting .494 percent from the field, .428 from three-point range and .897 from the free-throw line.

He ranks eighth on the NBA's all-time free-throw percentage list and is the Jazz's all-time leader in free-throw percentage and 3-point percentage. He also ranks in the top 10 in nearly every statistical category in franchise history, including: fourth in assists (1,895), three-point field goals made (439) and attempted (1,025); sixth in steals (618) and free throws made (1,499); eighth in points scored (6,848), field goals made (2,455) and attempted (4,967) and free throws attempted (1,672); and ninth in minutes played (14,730).

In his six-plus seasons with the Jazz, Hornacek helped lead the team to three 60-win seasons, two Midwest Division titles, two Western Conference Championships and two trips to the NBA Finals, in 1997 and 1998.


Hornacek scored a career-high 40 points vs. Seattle on Nov. 23, 1994, while tying an NBA record by going 8-for-8 from three-point range.

He was acquired by the Jazz from the Philadelphia 76ers on Feb. 24, 1994, along with Sean Green and a second-round draft pick for Jeff Malone and a 1994 first-round draft choice.

Coincidentally, Hornacek's jersey will be retired in a game against the team that originally drafted him in 1986 out of Iowa State. A second-round pick, he spent six seasons in Phoenix.

In his six-plus seasons with the Jazz, Hornacek was a fan favorite who delighted crowds not only with his three-point shooting but with an array of shots not usually seen from a guy playing on gimpy knees.

Jeff and his wife, Stacy, and their three children live in Salt Lake City.

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Starks played a bigger role in getting the Knicks to the finals and twenty years later still has made more threes in that jersey than any other player. #8 all-time in assists. #7 all-time in steals. #6 in defensive win shares behind Ewing, Oakley, Walt Frazier, Willis Reed and Dave DeBusschere.

The Mount Rushmore of Knicks in terms of Value Over Replacement Player? Ewing by a mile, then #2 Oakley, #3 Walt Frazier, #4 John Starks.

Oakley and Starks both should have their numbers retired.
 

grownazzblakman

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As a long-time Knick fan... Yes, I think the Knicks should retire BOTH of their numbers. :yes: Absolutely.

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Starks spent 8 yrs in a Knick uniform.
He averaged 19 ppg + 6 asts in 1994 (his best year)... and 14 ppg (overall) during his career as a Knick.

- NBA All-Star (1994)
- NBA All-Defensive Second Team (1993)
- NBA Sixth Man of the Year (1997)

Oakley spent 10 years in a Knick uniform.
He is ranked #1 in Offensive Rebounds and he's TOP 5 in a few categories like: Win Shares, Games Played, Minutes Played, Total Rebounds & Steals.... in Franchise History.

- NBA All-Star (1994)
- NBA All-Defensive First Team (1994)
- NBA All-Defensive Second Team (1998)

Aside from HOFers Mark Jackson & Patrick Ewing... they are the only (2) Knick players who EVER became an All-Star during the whole DECADE between 1986 to 1998 - ie. The Jordan Era.

And in the last 20 years SINCE Starks & Oakley have left the team... only (5) players have EVER made it to an All-Star Team while wearing a Knick uniform:

- Kristaps Porzingis
- Carmelo Anthony
- Amar'e Stoudemire
- Allan Houston
- David Lee

Even though Starks & Oakley never won a Championship Ring.... they are both still considered (old-school) LEGENDS in MSG, who each played more than 7+ years in an "Orange & Blue" jersey.

Allan Houston is the ONLY (All-Star level) player who has stayed at least 7+ or more years as a Knick, since they both left.

Granted, they won't make it into the Hall of Fame... but they both deserve to have their Jerseys retired in MSG. :yes: That's all.

Because all the years they spent on the Knicks were among the BEST seasons the team has had, in the last 25-30 years - at least.
And they were among the BEST players on the team... during some of the BEST seasons in Franchise History.

Just my opinion.
 
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Rembrandt Brown

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The Warriors are retiring Durant's jersey to forever commemorate the little fling they had.

The team that went to the finals consecutive years before he got there and had already won a championship won two more in three years with Durant.

All the Knicks have had in 40 years is Ewing, Oakley and Starks!

The guy on the left meant more to his franchise than the guy on the right.

 

woodchuck

A crowd pleasing man.
OG Investor
Short answer, no. Long answer, no. I remember watching O.J. being slow chased on a split screen on my T.V., and on the other side of that split screen, seeing Starks not being able to hit the ocean if he was shooting the ball from a boat.
 

EPDC

El Pirate Del Caribe
BGOL Investor
Oakley's number, no but his hand, yes, from all the fools he slapped for owing him money.

There should be a bronze bust of his open hand in the NBA Hall of Fame.
 

Heist

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No.
If there is a garden ring of honor, their names definitely belong there-but they’re not jersey retirement status
 
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