Science Debate: Two Astrophysicists Debate Free Will

[keone]

At this point, why do we get up everyday? Also, in your opinion, do you feel that you have "been here" before? This goes to what you mean when you say the system being reconstructed repeatedly?

Dejavu is real
Does seem like we have been living this before

 

[4 Dimensional]

Didn't get a chance to watch the whole video, but I think life is a hybrid of the two, you do have choices but these choices are bound to retainers that are the consequence of the system already in motion.
Look at it this way, what if someone like Neil DeGras Tyson were to do something totally irrational and unpredictable, just to test the boundaries of free will, say he were to randomly smoke crack, well his actions may have been a derivative of his random decision, but even this random act result will be affected by the path of life already in motion, making his experience with crack different from the experience of someone smoking crack with a different background, the results may wind up similar but things like one having the supports system, money to either pay to get rehab or buy more crack will be effected differently due to the unique situations that they are in.
So basically in the big picture, we all wind up as worm food, what we do on our path between now in then has very little bearing in the long run so being free to do what you want, doesn't mean you are free to change the subjective results of your life but objectively speaking most of the subjective reality that we define as free will, dies when you are place six feet under. It's a little like this, all video game ever made concludes the same way, with you quitting either because you finished the game or because you got sick of playing, but it is inevitable that you eventually stop playing.

It’s only a hybrid because we are looking at it from micro-levels versus a macro-levels. On a macro level, the things that happen on a micro level is negligible because any choices we make on a micro-level are based on a greater system that is working on a macro-level. Considering your example, Neil only smoked crack because it was available. With it being available, he could make that choice to test free will.

 

[RoadRage]

It’s only a hybrid because we are looking at it from micro-levels versus a macro-levels. On a macro level, the things that happen on a micro level is negligible because any choices we make on a micro-level are based on a greater system that is working on a macro-level. Considering your example, Neil only smoked crack because it was available. With it being available, he could make that choice to test free will.

Correct, we experience the universe through our subjective micro level, which gives us the illusion of free will, but our reality is controlled by the macro causations that dictate the choices we have on a micro level, these events are inevitable, even our ability to somewhat negate or alter the macro scaled events are predicated on conditions that are out of our hands, for example, Helium three may be the perfect clean fuel, but our ability to harvest it depends on our ability to mine it on the moon, but what if our mood didn't have any Helium 3, our future choices to go back to the moon would be affected, not out of will but lack of necessity.

 

[4 Dimensional]

Correct, we experience the universe through our subjective micro level, which gives us the illusion of free will, but our reality is controlled by the macro causations that dictate the choices we have on a micro level, these events are inevitable, even our ability to somewhat negate or alter the macro scaled events are predicated on conditions that are out of our hands, for example, Helium three may be the perfect clean fuel, but our ability to harvest it depends on our ability to mine it on the moon, but what if our mood didn't have any Helium 3, our future choices to go back to the moon would be affected, not out of will but lack of necessity.

Absolutely.

This is why having a purpose is necessary. We have to exist and make decisions within our reality. Birth is a result of two people's decisions, whether intentionally, unintentionally, or accidentally. Anything after birth has variables already in place for the person to understand.

As children are ignorant of the dangers of bad decisions, they instinctively do things to see what happens. We try to teach them to navigate their reality as best as possible. But as we do that, the macro-system changes, causing us to adjust how we live and what we teach our children.

I think I have a conclusion "I" can feel comfortable with.

"Macro-level systems provide pre-set conditions and variables for micro-level systems to operate with their sub-realities.

Micro-level systems are results from a macro-level system that allows humanity to dictate specific outcomes based on pre-set conditions and variables.

Free will is a micro-level ideology based on the human perspective set forth by a macro-level system.

Free will is real in micro-level systems, but a result of a macro-level system making it an illusion to humanity that believes it's real or something that individuals can control."

 

[BlackGoku]

Absolutely.

This is why having a purpose is necessary. We have to exist and make decisions within our reality. Birth is a result of two people's decisions, whether intentionally, unintentionally, or accidentally. Anything after birth has variables already in place for the person to understand.

As children are ignorant of the dangers of bad decisions, they instinctively do things to see what happens. We try to teach them to navigate their reality as best as possible. But as we do that, the macro-system changes, causing us to adjust how we live and what we teach our children.

I think I have a conclusion "I" can feel comfortable with.

"Macro-level systems provide pre-set conditions and variables for micro-level systems to operate with their sub-realities.

Micro-level systems are results from a macro-level system that allows humanity to dictate specific outcomes based on pre-set conditions and variables.

Free will is a micro-level ideology based on the human perspective set forth by a macro-level system.

Free will is real in micro-level systems, but a result of a macro-level system making it an illusion to humanity that believes it's real or something that individuals can control."

Have you always felt this way or did "The Matrix" send you down this rabbit hole? LOL...Merovingian talking about this here.

 

[PsiBorg]

Chaos (randomness/unpredictability) is the "natural" state of the Universe. Now having said that, Pure Freewill is non-existent.

Freewill is an illusion. Freewill is an idea that powerful men created to give some type of hope to powerless men. It allows the downtrodden to believe that they have some type of control over their own lives. When in truth, they have none.

If the natural state is chaos, those who are in control will fear this condition the most (which they do). So how do they react to this? They create the idea of "Order" or control.

I was watching these college protests as of late. The students will take over a yard or building in a chaotic fashion. Then the college will call the cops to bring what??? ORDER!

Order is not the natural state of things, it's a created construct to control people. Order is used to create fear, violence, and intimidation.

It's way too early to be discussing this shit, OP. I'mma go exercise my perceived freewill to drink a cup of coffee, and look at some tiddies.

 

[BlackGoku]

Chaos (randomness/unpredictability) is the "natural" state of the Universe. Now having said that, Pure Freewill is non-existent.

Freewill is an illusion. Freewill is an idea that powerful men created to give some type of hope to powerless men. It allows the downtrodden to believe that they have some type of control over their own lives. When in truth, they have none.

If the natural state is chaos, those who are in control will fear this condition the most (which they do). So how do they react to this? They create the idea of "Order" or control.

I was watching these college protests as of late. The students will take over a yard or building in a chaotic fashion. Then the college will call the cops to bring what??? ORDER!

Order is not the natural state of things, it's a created construct to control people. Order is used to create fear, violence, and intimidation.

It's way too early to be discussing this shit, OP. I'mma go exercise my perceived freewill to drink a cup of coffee, and look at some tiddies.

Can you explain Donald Trump then? this is the most chaotic elected official i've seen in my lifetime. i guess the generals in his cabinet was the "order" to keep him from blowing up the world.

 

[4 Dimensional]

Have you always felt this way or did "The Matrix" send you down this rabbit hole? LOL...Merovingian talking about this here.

The movie definitely influenced me. However, my philosophy expanded when I started deep-diving into science, mathematics, and numerical modeling systems while earning my degrees.

Numerical weather prediction is what took me over the edge of understanding. Our forecast changes regularly every time we introduce new variables to the system. That's the premise of the Chaos Theory (a.k.a. the Butterly Effect), derived by mathematician and meteorologist Edward Lorenz.

Everything we try to predict changes once the initial conditions change. Here is an example using the Lorenz Attractor.

Here are the governing equations.

Here are my initial conditions:

sigma = 10,
rho = 28
beta = 2.667

x = 0
y = 1
z = 1.05

I get the resulting image.

Now, I change one of the variables (y = 1 to y = 2) and get a different result even though the equations remain the same.

This rabbit hole became more than something I could talk about. It was something I could scientifically visualize and explain.

 

[Gods_Debris]

Free will is an illusion. It doesn’t exist.

We are all consequence of a system already in motion.

Let’s start there because this a rabbit hole.

One giant running lottery wheel really. Fucking perpetual plinko game.

 

[PsiBorg]

Can you explain Donald Trump then? this is the most chaotic elected official i've seen in my lifetime. i guess the generals in his cabinet was the "order" to keep him from blowing up the world.

Donald Trump is chaotic to us (the regular people).

Why do you think so many rich people and companies want him in? It's because he's one of the powerful, and he makes no excuses for it.

He's going to further the rich and powerful causes. He doesn't represent chaos at all... He's an agent of Order in the big scheme of things.

The generals in his cabinet understand their roll in this stuff... They aren't going to go against it. If you look at poor countries, they are always prone to having military coups. Why? Because chaos is ever present in their societies, and on all levels of government. Not so in most European thinking societies. They've been using domination tactics to create their societies for years. And, it's "order" based.

Here, if a cop does some foul shit, he'll say one of two things: 1) Hey, I was just following orders. 2) I was just doing my job. Both of these are the same thing.

 

[RoadRage]

The movie definitely influenced me. However, my philosophy expanded when I started deep-diving into science, mathematics, and numerical modeling systems while earning my degrees.

Numerical weather prediction is what took me over the edge of understanding. Our forecast changes regularly every time we introduce new variables to the system. That's the premise of the Chaos Theory (a.k.a. the Butterly Effect), derived by mathematician and meteorologist Edward Lorenz.

Everything we try to predict changes once the initial conditions change. Here is an example using the Lorenz Attractor.

Here are the governing equations.

Here are my initial conditions:

sigma = 10,
rho = 28
beta = 2.667

x = 0
y = 1
z = 1.05

I get the resulting image.

Now, I change one of the variables (y = 1 to y = 2) and get a different result even though the equations remain the same.

This rabbit hole became more than something I could talk about. It was something I could scientifically visualize and explain.

The fact that we live in such a random, spontaneous universe governed by the law of entropy yet at the same time so organized (and as a whole) and somewhat predictable, this illustrates shows the dual nature of the universe and how perspective can influence how we experience phenomena and it is from our limited perspective that we derive the notion of free will, but in the macro grand scale, we have no more free will than a cell in our body, doing its job of keeping the whole body alive.

 

[4 Dimensional]

Donald Trump is chaotic to us (the regular people).

Why do you think so many rich people and companies want him in? It's because he's one of the powerful, and he makes no excuses for it.

He's going to further the rich and powerful causes. He doesn't represent chaos at all... He's agent of Order in the big scheme of things.

The generals in his cabinet understand their roll in this stuff... They aren't going to go against it. If you look at poor countries, they are always prone to having military coups. Why? Because chaos is ever present in their societies, and on all levels of government. Not so in most European thinking societies. They've been using domination tactics to create their societies for years. And, it's "order" based.

Here, if a cop does some foul shit, he'll say one of two things: 1) Hey, I was just following orders. 2) I was just doing my job. Both of these are the same thing.

What you explained could be applied directly to the above post with the equations. Same thing.

 

[PsiBorg]

Of course, the decision to commit suicide may seem come off like a free will decision, which I understand that.

I would say suicides are the ultimate expression of freewill if freewill exist.

The powerful control everything about a person's life. But they can't stop you from taking your own life, or even from committing murder. There's a reason why churches say that "Suicide is the only sin that God won't forgive."

 

[4 Dimensional]

The fact that we live in such a random, spontaneous universe governed by the law of entropy yet at the same time so organized (and as a whole) and somewhat predictable, this illustrates shows the dual nature of the universe and how perspective can influence how we experience phenomena and it is from our limited perspective that we derive the notion of free will, but in the macro grand scale, we have no more free will than a cell in our body, doing its job of keeping the whole body alive.

Right. Like a microscopic bacteria like staph killing you even though you took all the precautions to prevent it.

That's why all this human shit is game to me, and we have to play it based on what is presented in front of us. I don't try to knock anyone in what they believe or how they choose to navigate their reality. I try... (the Flat Earth thread).

 

[PsiBorg]

In numerical simulations, we start calculations with an initial set of conditions. These preset conditions are physical parameterizations (equations). The parameters are set if you believe in a God or have some scientific theoretical explanation (i.e., The Big Bang). Once the simulation begins calculations, the results are based on what those parameters represent (i.e., the evolution of humanity or Adam/Eve).

The problem with simulations is that we can't escape chaos in the system, or, as the Architect in "The Matrix" refers to it, 'free will.' But what's so beautiful is that no matter how much chaos entered the system, it was destroyed and reconstructed repeatedly. Again, free will is bounded by a more extensive system that influences people's decision-making on a micro-level. If an asteroid hits the earth, causing an ELE, your free will will vanish into dust.

However, to maintain sanity and a sense of purpose in our being here, we make these illusions real because they have real-life consequences. I have choices, and I believe I made the proper choices that allowed me to be the person I am today. My choices were well-informed decisions based on my circumstances in life. However, I wasn't always in control of the outcome. So, what is free will when you don't always have control of the outcome? An illusion. So, you accept or reject the results depending on the outcome. And sometimes, you don't have a choice between accepting or rejecting the result. You take the outcome as it is.

I like how you think, Brother...

 

[RoadRage]

Right. Like a microscopic bacteria like staph killing you even though you took all the precautions to prevent it.

That's why all this human shit is game to me, and we have to play it based on what is presented in front of us. I don't try to knock anyone in what they believe or how they choose to navigate their reality. I try... (the Flat Earth thread).

Bro, you have a gift of making smart look cool, this is why I support you and people like you, because this is what we need more of, as a people.

 

[4 Dimensional]

I would say suicides are the ultimate expression of freewill if freewill exist.

The powerful control everything about a person's life. But they can't stop you from taking your own life, or even from committing murder. There's a reason why churches say that "Suicide is the only sin that God won't forgive."

That and the decision to have a child. Both would be ultimate expressions, imo.

 

[4 Dimensional]

I like how you think, Brother...

Appreciate it, family.

Bro, you have a gift of making smart look cool, this is why I support you and people like you, because this is what we need more of, as a people.

Same. I'm all for expanding what we do as a community. That's why it's important to me to teach my students how to understand what we are doing here. I'm not trying to change them, but only offer tools to help them see the bigger picture and navigate the system they are in.

Many sub-systems exist in our micro-level system, too. So, we learn and understand as much as we can.

 

[4 Dimensional]

@playahaitian

Why did you provoke my insanity, fam?

 

[playahaitian]

@playahaitian

Why did you provoke my insanity, fam?

Because I got love for you like a little brother!!!

 

[playahaitian]

Donald Trump is chaotic to us (the regular people).

Why do you think so many rich people and companies want him in? It's because he's one of the powerful, and he makes no excuses for it.

He's going to further the rich and powerful causes. He doesn't represent chaos at all... He's an agent of Order in the big scheme of things.

The generals in his cabinet understand their roll in this stuff... They aren't going to go against it. If you look at poor countries, they are always prone to having military coups. Why? Because chaos is ever present in their societies, and on all levels of government. Not so in most European thinking societies. They've been using domination tactics to create their societies for years. And, it's "order" based.

Here, if a cop does some foul shit, he'll say one of two things: 1) Hey, I was just following orders. 2) I was just doing my job. Both of these are the same thing.

Election Throwbump

 

[keone]

Because I got love for you like a little brother!!!

More like little son lol