Shane Mosley: I'm The Best at 147, Not Manny Pacquiao

[Spectrum]

I keep making it because part of your assessment that Mayweather and Sweet Pea had better defense than Jones is based on Jones getting kayoed and/or losing speed and becoming ineffective.

If Jones never got KOd he still would not be the defensive fighters that sweat pea and Mayweather.

Im surprised that you are even making the argument. You are a fan of RJJ and it shows right now because there really is absolutely no logical argument for RJJ even being in same breadth as those fighters DEFENSIVELY. You are confusing correlation with causation bra.... the only thing that is common amongst those three fighters is SPEED and RJJ was probably faster p4p.. but that is the ONLY thing those three fighters had in common defensively becuase RJJ completely lacks the defensively capabilities of Floyd and Sweat Pea on multiple levels..

 

[Zeferino]

it's the say anything to make Floyd look bad argument.

C'mon man, it's true. Sweet Pea may not have been a big puncher but he was a mean motherfucker and he punched with conviction. He threw a lot of punches in bunches and combinations too.

 

[Alaskanredman]

I keep making it because part of your assessment that Mayweather and Sweet Pea had better defense than Jones is based on Jones getting kayoed and/or losing speed and becoming ineffective. However, this is a very unfair comparison because Sweet Pea and Mayweather did not go through what Jones went through. Chris Byrd is considered more of a so called defensive purist than Jones was and look what happened to him when he came all the way down from heavyweight. He got totally wiped out by an unknown bum. This was the same Chris Byrd that was taking big shots from heavyweights for years.

Jones fought dehydrated in his first fight back from heavyweight and it showed. Everyone knows that dehydrated fighters are more susceptible to damage in the ring than others. It's no coincidence that in that fight Jones got badly rocked for the first time in his career. In the second Tarver fight, Jones just came back to quick and any objective observer can tell that he didn't look himself from the first round. He came back quick again for the Glen Johnson fight and looked scared from the first round, got rocked in the first round, the fifth round too, and eventually knocked totally out. I'm sorry but all this had a little more to do with than Jones simply losing some speed.

Even Emmanuel Steward said on the telecast that he thought Jones had a brain injury and was coming back too fast. Check out his comments after the Johnson fight.

Again, I don't care how great Mayweather is supposed to be defensively, as fat-less as he is, if he were to come down even 15 pounds for his next fight, somebody would be knocking him out or at least down several times.

Wouldn't this argument work against Williams if Williams came back down to welter to fight PBF.

 

[Zeferino]

If Jones never got KOd he still would not be the defensive fighters that sweat pea and Mayweather.

Im surprised that you are even making the argument. You are a fan of RJJ and it shows right now because there really is absolutely not logical argument for RJJ even being in same breadth as those fighters DEFENSIVELY.

No logical argument based on what? Because Jones let his hands down and was fast? Bottom line is Jones didn't get hit and that is what defense is all about. To penalize him for being fast is unfair. You have to be somewhat fast and have reflexes to employ any type of defense. You're telling me that you don't think Floyd Mayweather has above average speed and reflexes?

Seriously, a regular fighter could not get away with doing a check hook like Floyd or that leaping straight right hand that he throws. Floyd gets away with these things because he has above average physical ability to go with skill. If he just had the skill alone, he wouldn't be getting away with it. Should we say Floyd doesn't have skill just because he has above average physical ability? That's ridiculous.

 

[Zeferino]

Wouldn't this argument work against Williams if Williams came back down to welter to fight PBF.

At this point, it might. Maybe Floyd should call him out after he really gets situated at middleweight.

 

[Spectrum]

No logical argument based on what? Because Jones let his hands down and was fast? .

confusing correlation with causation.

. You are confusing correlation with causation bra.... the only thing that is common amongst those three fighters is SPEED and RJJ was probably faster p4p.. but that is the ONLY thing those three fighters had in common defensively becuase RJJ completely lacks the defensively capabilities of Floyd and Sweat Pea on multiple levels..

RJJ is not winning fights on his defensive capabilities. Floyd can completely lean on his defense to win fights. One of the few fighters, that can do so.

 

[Alaskanredman]

C'mon man, it's true. Sweet Pea may not have been a big puncher but he was a mean motherfucker and he punched with conviction. He threw a lot of punches in bunches and combinations too.

The Floyd hate is strong in you.

 

[BDR]

Yo I can't wait until PBF straight pic Pacman apart. Watch these same hatin niggas in here disappear like they never said a thing.

 

[Zeferino]

The Floyd hate is strong in you.

 

[Spectrum]

The Floyd hate is strong in you.

It is funny because Sweat Pea (again my favorite fighter) was even LESS aggressive offensively than Floyd and that is why he got robbed in a couple of fights ( DLH)

 

[Spectrum]

Yo I can't wait until PBF straight pic Pacman apart. Watch these same hatin niggas in here disappear like they never said a thing.

They wont disappear. They are going to say that Pacman was too small for Floyd anywayand wasnt a real challenge (after he just murdered Cotto ).

 

[Zeferino]

confusing correlation with causation.



RJJ is not winning fights on his defensive capabilities. Floyd can completely lean on his defense to win fights. One of the few fighters, that can do so.

Tell that to James Toney, a fighter with great defensive skills but he's getting hit like never before because he's lost speed. Toney is trying that shoulder roll stuff but he got hit like never before against the African guy and against Fres Oquendo. Why? Because he no longer has the reflexes, speed, and necessary physicality to make his defense work because he is old and out of shape.

Mayweather has natural physical gifts just like Roy Jones did/does and those gifts are keys to making his defense work. Now, does that mean Mayweather is really a good defender or should he be penalized for having an unfair advantage in speed and reflexes?

 

[Alaskanredman]

No logical argument based on what? Because Jones let his hands down and was fast? Bottom line is Jones didn't get hit and that is what defense is all about. To penalize him for being fast is unfair. You have to be somewhat fast and have reflexes to employ any type of defense. You're telling me that you don't think Floyd Mayweather has above average speed and reflexes?

Seriously, a regular fighter could not get away with doing a check hook like Floyd or that leaping straight right hand that he throws. Floyd gets away with these things because he has above average physical ability to go with skill. If he just had the skill alone, he wouldn't be getting away with it. Should we say Floyd doesn't have skill just because he has above average physical ability? That's ridiculous.

Floyd can field shots without feinting or backing up. Roy can't.

 

[Zeferino]

It is funny because Sweat Pea (again my favorite fighter) was even LESS aggressive offensively than Floyd and that is why he got robbed in a couple of fights ( DLH)

C'mon man. Sweet Pea threw way more punches per round than Floyd and I chalk that up to being more aggressive. Floyd is just looking to counterpunch and pot shot you. Do you deny that Pea threw more punches per round than Mayweather? Seriously?

 

[FJP]

No logical argument based on what? Because Jones let his hands down and was fast? Bottom line is Jones didn't get hit and that is what defense is all about. To penalize him for being fast is unfair. You have to be somewhat fast and have reflexes to employ any type of defense. You're telling me that you don't think Floyd Mayweather has above average speed and reflexes?

Seriously, a regular fighter could not get away with doing a check hook like Floyd or that leaping straight right hand that he throws. Floyd gets away with these things because he has above average physical ability to go with skill. If he just had the skill alone, he wouldn't be getting away with it. Should we say Floyd doesn't have skill just because he has above average physical ability? That's ridiculous.

He's saying what Roy did and what Floyd does is different. Floyd and pernell are fast BUT the difference is they combine TECHNIQUE with ability. Roy just used ability. Its like an NBA Player when they come out of high school, they are just getting by on ABILITY then when they learn the technique to go with it, thats when they excelled. Roy lived for so long on just ability he felt he never needed to learn technique which in the end was his downfall. Ability is temporary, technique is not.

 

[FJP]

Tell that to James Toney, a fighter with great defensive skills but he's getting hit like never before because he's lost speed. Toney is trying that shoulder roll stuff but he got hit like never before against the African guy and against Fres Oquendo. Why? Because he no longer has the reflexes, speed, and necessary physicality to make his defense work because he is old and out of shape.

Mayweather has natural physical gifts just like Roy Jones did/does and those gifts are keys to making his defense work. Now, does that mean Mayweather is really a good defender or should he be penalized for having an unfair advantage in speed and reflexes?

He's not saying speed doesnt matter. He's saying that unlike the other who have speed as an ELEMENT of their defense, with Roy speed IS/WAS his defense.

 

[Alaskanredman]

At this point, it might. Maybe Floyd should call him out after he really gets situated at middleweight.

come on dude. Williams will be dangerous either way. Weight is not going to take anything away from his dude.

 

[Zeferino]

He's saying what Roy did and what Floyd does is different. Floyd and pernell are fast BUT the difference is they combine TECHNIQUE with ability. Roy just used ability. Its like an NBA Player when they come out of high school, they are just getting by on ABILITY then when they learn the technique to go with it, thats when they excelled. Roy lived for so long on just ability he felt he never needed to learn technique which in the end was his downfall. Ability is temporary, technique is not.

Ability? Jones had no technique? Even the most talented NBA player still has to know how to dribble a ball and shoot. Somebody has to teach them or they have to watch someone and learn. They just don't come out of their mother's vagina instantly knowing how to dunk a ball. Same with Jones. C'mon, of course the guy has technique. Give boxing and boxers more credit than that. You can be as fast as you want but you still have to know how to throw punches correctly and know where punches are coming from. You want to see a fast fighter that doesn't know what the hell to do with his speed, see Andre Dirrell.

 

[Spectrum]

Mayweather has natural physical gifts just like Roy Jones did/does and those gifts are keys to making his defense work. Now, does that mean Mayweather is really a good defender or should he be penalized for having an unfair advantage in speed and reflexes?

You are looking really dense right now. I already established the fact that Jones, Sweat Pea, and Mayweather all had one thing in common... Speed. So the fact that they are all faster than the normal boxer is already been established. That is not to the issue. They are all physically-gifted fighters. Like I said, you are making a common mistake in logic..confusing correlation with causation.

But that is where the similarities end and you know it. To just give one example. The shoulder roll in the orthodox defensive style is not solely dependent on pure speed. It is not the speed that is the key, it is knowing the proper tactic in terms of the angle of rolling...that is why the punch is rendered ineffective even if it makes contact. This is just one example where this is not a natural talent..that is a learned behavior...one of many that Floyd deploys during a fight. RJJ does not deploy defensive tactics like that during a fight..he always depended on just being faster than the opposition.

 

[FJP]

Ability? Jones had no technique? Even the most talented NBA player still has to know how to dribble a ball and shoot. Somebody has to teach them or they have to watch someone and learn. They just don't come out of their mother's vagina instantly knowing how to dunk a ball. Same with Jones. C'mon, of course the guy has technique. Give boxing and boxers more credit than that. You can be as fast as you want but you still have to know how to throw punches correctly and know where punches are coming from. You want to see a fast fighter that doesn't know what the hell to do with his speed, see Andre Dirrell.

Man Jones had terrible technique, thats been noted so many times its not funny. Seriously how many people do you think would get by with the way Roy defends?

 

[Spectrum]

He's saying what Roy did and what Floyd does is different. Floyd and pernell are fast BUT the difference is they combine TECHNIQUE with ability. Roy just used ability. Its like an NBA Player when they come out of high school, they are just getting by on ABILITY then when they learn the technique to go with it, thats when they excelled. Roy lived for so long on just ability he felt he never needed to learn technique which in the end was his downfall. Ability is temporary, technique is not.

Exactly. Im out for the night... that should be so simple to grasp.

 

[Alaskanredman]

Ability? Jones had no technique? Even the most talented NBA player still has to know how to dribble a ball and shoot. Somebody has to teach them or they have to watch someone and learn. They just don't come out of their mother's vagina instantly knowing how to dunk a ball. Same with Jones. C'mon, of course the guy has technique. Give boxing and boxers more credit than that. You can be as fast as you want but you still have to know how to throw punches correctly and know where punches are coming from. You want to see a fast fighter that doesn't know what the hell to do with his speed, see Andre Dirrell.

yeah, but height has nothing to do with skill.

 

[Zeferino]

You are looking really dense right now. I already established the fact that Jones, Sweat Pea, and Mayweather all had one thing in common... Speed. So the fact that they are all faster than the normal boxer is already been established. That is not to the issue. They are all physically-gifted fighters. Like I said, you are making a common mistake in logic..confusing correlation with causation.

But that is where the similarities end and you know it. To just give one example. The shoulder roll in the orthodox defensive style is not solely dependent on pure speed. It is not the speed that is the key, it is knowing the proper tactic in terms of the angle of rolling...that is why the punch is rendered ineffective even if it makes contact. This is just one example where this is not a natural talent..that is a learned behavior...one of many that Floyd deploys during a fight. RJJ does not deploy defensive tactics like that during a fight..he always depended on just being faster than the opposition.

Yeah, but you can't have average or below average reflexes and expect to use a shoulder roll with the same success. For example, James Toney. He still has great technique but he currently does not have the reflexes to make it work. So yes, natural talent is needed to make certain things work, including a shoulder roll. If that wasn't the case, then all trainers should just ingrain the shoulder roll technique into their fighters and expect them to be the next Floyd Mayweather. I can't think of the guy's last name, his name was Lamar something and he was out of Miami. He fought Miguel Angel Gonzalez back in the day and got robbed. He had a beautiful shoulder roll technique too but lacked the natural talent to put it all together.

 

[Spectrum]

Man Jones had terrible technique, thats been noted so many times its not funny. Seriously how many people do you think would get by with the way Roy defends?

99 percent of boxers that tried to emulate that style would end up getting KOd consistently. Jones had horrible technique that was overshadowed by ridiculous natural abilities like superhuman speed.

Im really surprised that he is trying to argue otherwise.

 

[Zeferino]

Man Jones had terrible technique, thats been noted so many times its not funny. Seriously how many people do you think would get by with the way Roy defends?

Just because other people can't do what Jones does or did does not mean that his technique was terrible. Besides saying, "oh, he put his hands down", what exactly about his technique was terrible? Name one thing.

 

[Spectrum]

Yeah, but you can't have average or below average reflexes and expect to use a shoulder roll with the same success. For example, James Toney. He still has great technique but he currently does not have the reflexes to make it work. So yes, natural talent is needed to make certain things work, including a shoulder roll. If that wasn't the case, then all trainers should just ingrain the shoulder roll technique into their fighters and expect them to be the next Floyd Mayweather. I can't think of the guy's last name, his name was Lamar something and he was out of Miami. He fought Miguel Angel Gonzalez back in the day and got robbed. He had a beautiful shoulder roll technique too but lacked the natural talent to put it all together.

Again, this is a straw-man. We arent talking about average or below-average reflexes. We are talking about boxers with at least above average reflexes. We arent talking about bums here. A SLOW fighter is going to get hit regardless of what technique he employs obviously.

The argument was never that ANY fighter regardless of speed would be able to deploy a shoulder roll with success.

 

[Zeferino]

99 percent of boxers that tried to emulate that style would end up getting KOd consistently. Jones had horrible technique that was overshadowed by ridiculous natural abilities like superhuman speed.

Im really surprised that he is trying to argue otherwise.

Just because Jones was harder to imitate doesn't mean his technique was bad. Besides telling me that he fought with his hands down, what was so horrible about his technique? Since you want to be technical, how about a technical answer.

 

[Zeferino]

Again, this is a straw-man. We arent talking about average or below-average reflexes. We are talking about boxers with at least above average reflexes. We arent talking about bums here. A SLOW fighter is going to get hit regardless of what technique he employs obviously.

The argument was never that ANY fighter regardless of speed would be able to deploy a shoulder roll with success.

Which means that most fighters that try to shoulder roll like Mayweather would get kayoed because they'd most likely get backed up on the ropes and get pounded out. Just like Oscar de la Hoya when he was training with Mayweather Sr, he looked like a fool trying to do a shoulder roll and taking right hands on the top of his head.

 

[FJP]

Just because other people can't do what Jones does or did does not mean that his technique was terrible. Besides saying, "oh, he put his hands down", what exactly about his technique was terrible? Name one thing.

Zef you cant be serious man...seriously..EVERYTHING about it for the most part. Thats like saying "What about Mike Tysons punching style makes it powerful?"

 

[Zeferino]

Zef you cant be serious man...seriously..EVERYTHING about it for the most part. Thats like saying "What about Mike Tysons punching style makes it powerful?"

If it's "everything", you should be able to name one thing. Even I can name one thing but it's something almost every other fighter does anyway.

 

[FJP]

Which means that most fighters that try to shoulder roll like Mayweather would get kayoed because they'd most likely get backed up on the ropes and get pounded out. Just like Oscar de la Hoya when he was training with Mayweather Sr, he looked like a fool trying to do a shoulder roll and taking right hands on the top of his head.

That shows the attribute of the fighter. But the point is that there is NOTHING wrong with the techinique. Of course you need ABILITY to pull of even the "best" defensive technique. Shit you need ability to box period. What Roy used was not technique at all, it was just moving out of the way. No boxing trainer can teach you that shit Roy did, because if you werent as fast as Roy you'd get knocked the fuck out and they wouldnt have a job. I GUARANTEE YOU......that when Roy retires NOBODY will want him as a trainer.

 

[FJP]

If it's "everything", you should be able to name one thing. Even I can name one thing but it's something almost every other fighter does anyway.

Dropping his hands, no head movement except when a punch is coming. He moves at the last possible moment. Doesnt keep proper balance...etc.

 

[Zeferino]

That shows the attribute of the fighter. But the point is that there is NOTHING wrong with the techinique. Of course you need ABILITY to pull of even the "best" defensive technique. Shit you need ability to box period. What Roy used was not technique at all, it was just moving out of the way. No boxing trainer can teach you that shit Roy did, because if you werent as fast as Roy you'd get knocked the fuck out and they wouldnt have a job. I GUARANTEE YOU......that when Roy retires NOBODY will want him as a trainer.

haha. Well, a lot of people want his father as a trainer. To say Jones had no technique is an insane exagerration. That would mean the guy didn't even know how to throw punches correctly or to even stand, lol. If Jones didn't know how to throw punches correctly he would have broken his hands numerous times.

 

[Zeferino]

Dropping his hands, no head movement except when a punch is coming. He moves at the last possible moment. Doesnt keep proper balance...etc.

Maybe you just haven't seen a lot of Jones fights. Dropping hands: Even Willie Pep did this. Head movement: Why move your head if a punch isn't coming anyway? Balance: Look at the combo that knocked out Pazienza and tell me if any other boxer had the balance to pull that off.

You really didn't mention any real lack of technique.

 

[Alaskanredman]

Maybe you just haven't seen a lot of Jones fights. Dropping hands: Even Willie Pep did this. Head movement: Why move your head if a punch isn't coming anyway? Balance: Look at the combo that knocked out Pazienza and tell me if any other boxer had the balance to pull that off.

You really didn't mention any real lack of technique.

Say anything to knock PBF.

And say anything to promote Jones.

No logic needed.

Roy is that you?