** The HBO Series "The Wire" Question & Answer Thread **

[Djmarkxr7]

Re: "The Wire"

wrong. avon said "chump brothers"; avon kept a watchful eye, took in how everything was going down, and knew that his childhood friend (who was never very prudent back then either) was getting played.

I believe that you're adding your own take here again.

Why would Avon refer to himself as a chump?

I believe that Avon said "Trump brothers" here, (in a reference to Donald Trump) as in BOTH of them being big time players in real estate due to Stringers' machinations but he did say it mockingly, because he didn't have any interest in that world.

That world was part of Stringer's "away games".

Avon didn't know Stringer was getting played because he had no idea of how that world worked, his ONLY interest was the street, his mocking of Stringer was much the same way peeps in the hood mock people on Wall Street, they do so out of ignorance because they don't understand that world.

you answer your own question.

edit: before you watch the finale again, inventory the development property, then listen to clay davis, then listen to andy krawczyk and marlo.

Ok, now I began this discussion with

Buying the property wasn't part of the long con, Davis was using that property for his long con, remember as Levy told Stringer, if things come thru he takes credit, if they don't that's just the way business was.

You replied with

this is a GAPING BLIND SPOT in your understanding of the show. now i know you must watch the finale again. maybe you disregarded what was said because it was only a supporting cast member who had the lines. i don't know how you (and others) really could've missed it if you were paying attention.

they attempted to run the EXACT same con on marlo, but he was more INTELLIGENT than stringer bell, and walked away from it.

I have rewatched several episodes and keyed in on the real estate dealings and the conversations that you've pointed out.

I understand where you're coming from as far as the long con with Andy Krawczyk, he was describing waterfront property to Marlo, probably pretty much the same way someone (probably him) described it to Stringer years before about Howard Street.

I think that in your zeal however, you missed the overall implication of that statement.

He told Marlo, "New Westport is like Howard Street 10 years ago, except the land's cheaper!"

While I do agree with you that this is the beginning of a "long con", it ALSO says that Howard street is no longer that way.

Let's not forget either that Howard street itself was a different animal in the fact that it was labelled as an Empowerment Zone and earmarked for and had received federal funding in the amount of 250 million dollars (I think we covered this, the newspaper that Prez put in the garbage but Lester pulled out), and if you look closely @ the map Lester had of B&B properties they had either 5 or 6 properties on Howard street itself, one very large property (which was the condo rehab Stringer was killed in) and 4 or 5 smaller properties (Lester's finger possibly obscures 1) that they either were or did turn over to the city for a profit since they were in the Empowerment Zone, as Lester pointed out in their meeting with the Feds.

Even with Stringer being taken on the long con, being that he was a drug dealer and had deep pockets this was not as much a hardship to him as it would be to someone of limited means, this is part of but NOT what killed him.

It was his chase of his dream that did, this is what we are trying to point out to you.

You have to put the show in perspective, in season one Stringer was portrayed in a certain way, "as a "master of organization", the ONLY mistake you can say he made was taking the money from the Griggs shooting, and even that was really on Little Man.

Stringer's fuckups actually don't start until midway thru season 2 when he first has D'Angelo killed (this was more for self-preservation, remember his last meeting with D was in jail, and D was HIGHLY upset with Stringer about Wallace's death, let alone that he was giving Avon, his own family, the cold shoulder) and later makes his deal with Prop Joe, which actually turns out to be his own death sentence.

Also, as I said earlier Marlo didn't leave they party because he knew it was a con, he left because that wasn't his world, remember that Levy told him NOT to meet with them without him (lest they bleed him like Stringer) and he also told him he wanted to introduce him to someone else, at which point Marlo said he had to go to the bathroom but he actually left the party.

He went straight back to the street and some of the first words out of his mouth were "Do you know who I am?" as he walks up on a crew talking about Omar.

He confronts the crew, gets into a squabble and afterwards, when he sees himself bleeding, he licks the blood, looks around and says "Yeah!"

He was home again, even though he was thoroughly warned about the consequences IF he returned to the streets and "the game".

 

[geechiedan]

Re: "The Wire"

I believe that you're adding your own take here again.

Why would Avon refer to himself as a chump?

I believe that Avon said "Trump brothers" here, (in a reference to Donald Trump) as in BOTH of them being big time players in real estate due to Stringers' machinations but he did say it mockingly, because he didn't have any interest in that world.

That world was part of Stringer's "away games".

Avon didn't know Stringer was getting played because he had no idea of how that world worked, his ONLY interest was the street, his mocking of Stringer was much the same way peeps in the hood mock people on Wall Street, they do so out of ignorance because they don't understand that world.

[/B]

I think he does say chump..but BOTH of you are right more or less...

Avon didn't go along with stringer on the real estate shit because he didn't understand it but also because he knew he couldn't touch the people in it the same way he would go after a nigga on the street if they did him dirty.

Jay Z said in an interview with bill maher that peopel in the criminal world have to live by a certain code of ethics and honor or they would face serious consequences..e.g. their word had better be their bond or they WILL get killed for it. In the "straight" world people will say one thing, do another then hide behind a bunch of attorneys. Remember when string caught onto the grift he wanted to hit clay davis immediately..avon and slim charles understood that doing that wouldn't be impossible but it would shut them down just as fast. The people stringer was dealing with was mostly white people and mostly well known politicians two groups street niggas usually don't fuck with.

This is why you don't see crips and bloods banging in the white neighborhoods or killing any kind of politician because they know they did there would be no crips and bloods. As long as they stay in their lane (terrorizing and killing other black folk) their existence is tolerated. Avon understood this while stringer didn't care. Just like he didn't care about the sunday truce.

So in a sense you are both right...Avon didn't go for the real estate deals because he couldn't have much leverage in it much like he could a street deal and he also didn't have the vision or inclination to deal with something outside of the street corners he already had control over.

 

[Djmarkxr7]

Re: "The Wire"

I think he does say chump..but BOTH of you are right more or less...

Avon didn't go along with stringer on the real estate shit because he didn't understand it but also because he knew he couldn't touch the people in it the same way he would go after a nigga on the street if they did him dirty.

Jay Z said in an interview with bill maher that peopel in the criminal world have to live by a certain code of ethics and honor or they would face serious consequences..e.g. their word had better be their bond or they WILL get killed for it. In the "straight" world people will say one thing, do another then hide behind a bunch of attorneys. Remember when string caught onto the grift he wanted to hit clay davis immediately..avon and slim charles understood that doing that wouldn't be impossible but it would shut them down just as fast. The people stringer was dealing with was mostly white people and mostly well known politicians two groups street niggas usually don't fuck with.

This is why you don't see crips and bloods banging in the white neighborhoods or killing any kind of politician because they know they did there would be no crips and bloods. As long as they stay in their lane (terrorizing and killing other black folk) their existence is tolerated. Avon understood this while stringer didn't care. Just like he didn't care about the sunday truce.

So in a sense you are both right...Avon didn't go for the real estate deals because he couldn't have much leverage in it much like he could a street deal and he also didn't have the vision or inclination to deal with something outside of the street corners he already had control over.

I totally agree, Avon was absolutely correct in stopping Stringer from doing the hit on Clay Davis (even though he deserved it, lol!).

It was funny how Slim put it, to hit people in the street was just "putting in work" but to go after Clay Davis was "some assassin type ish!" to paraphrase.

Either way, somebody ends up dead but he was absolutely correct in his assessment!

I understand where you were going about the Crips and Bloods but they wouldn't even be able to start anything in a White neighborhood, we BOTH know that they would get picked up before they got a chance to start anything, lol!

When I was younger that happend to me twice, I was stopped and questioned simply for being in White neighborhoods (I was walking by myself both times in Nassau County).

I will revisit the Trump/Chump brothers scene, I watched that scene on my Evo which is why I wrote "I believe."

 

[Djmarkxr7]

Cranrab... You need to stop making shit up. You are adding your own vision to the show, but that dont make it fact.

We didnt see their come-up. Remember?

You cannot refer to Stringer as a simple "hanger-on". There is NOTHING to support that. Your own imagination does not count.

We do see that Avon "lives" for the game, while Stringer is only trying to "use" the game for his own ends, while never fully understanding it. Thats plain for everyone to see. Both dudes had their strengths and their weaknesses. Avon paid for being a hot-head, Stringer paid cause he thought himself smarter then everyone else.

I find (and probably most of ya'll as well!) that I get very "wordy" when I post, this ^ is the simplest breakdown of my (and most peoples) thoughts about "The Wire" here.

 

[cranrab]

Re: "The Wire"

You're calling the Co-op stupid but I suggest that you look up La Cosa Nostra, crime families have been doing it for over a century, it's just another way of doing business.

Most of the big time gangsters you can name were @ some point members, including Scarface himself, Al Capone.

Help: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicilian_Mafia

1) i don't have to look up la cosa nostra. movie and literature fiction is one thing, reality is quite another. i live in reality.

if you want to talk organized crime, fine. la cosa nostra, not so much.

these ideas, like referring to crime leaders as "don _________" were a creation of mario puzo's literary imagination.

2) if you're an adult, please refrain from using (or at least referencing wikipedia).

 

[cranrab]

Re: "The Wire"

They paid it and just before the credits roll we see Slim Charles and Fat Face Rick, the new heads of the Co-op, meeting with the Greek.

Here's help: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Day_Co-Op

1) slim charles and fat face rick = a co op?

2) ah, because wikipedia, and not the show, told you so.

it's no wonder so many people are confused about THE WIRE when they are relying upon wikipedia and youtube for their understanding of the show instead of watching it.

cliff notes are never a good substitute.

 

[cranrab]

Re: "The Wire"

and he turned down or ignored stringer multiple times..then string was killed..

precisely my point. thanks for making it plain for those who needed the extra hint.

string was dead by the time he joined the co-op...so that had nothing to do with it. He only joined the co-op when he discovered the cops were tailing him and prop joe came off like he had inside info on it...only IF marlo joined.

see Djmarkxr7's post for the rest of what happened.

and you don't see that marlo was merely sizing up the WEAKNESS of stringer bell and prop joe?



marlo used both of those WEAK PUSSIES, who kept offering him GIFTS. what did he provide in return?

marlo didn't mistake WEAKNESS as KINDNESS. marlo took full advantage of their stupidity and used it until they (the co-op) became worthless to him.



i hope most of you guys don't get played like this in real life.

 

[cranrab]

Re: "The Wire"

I believe that you're adding your own take here again.

i wish y'all would pay closer attention to the content you claim to be a fan of.

in this scene, not only does avon refer to both of them as the "chump brothers" regarding the real estate ventures, he also reveals that he has ALWAYS doubted stringer's competence.

I believe that Avon said "Trump brothers" here, (in a reference to Donald Trump) as in BOTH of them being big time players in real estate due to Stringers' machinations but he did say it mockingly, because he didn't have any interest in that world.

Avon didn't know Stringer was getting played because he had no idea of how that world worked, his ONLY interest was the street, his mocking of Stringer was much the same way peeps in the hood mock people on Wall Street, they do so out of ignorance because they don't understand that world.

Also, as I said earlier Marlo didn't leave they party because he knew it was a con, he left because that wasn't his world, remember that Levy told him NOT to meet with them without him (lest they bleed him like Stringer) and he also told him he wanted to introduce him to someone else, at which point Marlo said he had to go to the bathroom but he actually left the party.

this is the part of the reaction to THE WIRE that really disappoints me.

on BGOL, you have supposedly Black members creating a false dichotomy between avon barksdale and stringer bell: thug v. educated man. in truth, the respective polarity is between competent v. incompetent.

the avon barksdale and marlo characters were the BRAINS that made their organizations so successful. but here on BGOL their achievements (career choice notwithstanding) are cast in a poor light when compared to A LOSER like stringer bell.

only on BGOL.

 

[Nobody]

Re: "The Wire"

I also didn't like how he's acting like he's the one who "snatched D'Angelo's life"

Putting in the order is not the same as doing the work. He has never put any of that in, why act like he's in that shit now?

 

[Djmarkxr7]

Re: "The Wire"

1) i don't have to look up la cosa nostra. movie and literature is one thing, reality is quite another. i live in reality.

if you want to talk organized crime, fine. la cosa nostra, not so much.

these ideas, like referring to crime leaders as "don _________" was a creation of mario puzo's literary imagination.

2) if you're an adult, please refrain from using (or at least referencing wikipedia).

Just exactly where do you think the inspiration for the movie came from?

If you had bothered to look @ the page IT DOES NOT refer to any movie or books but REAL LIFE people, some of whom the characters that are in movies of which you speak are based on.

I listed that page as an easy way for you to see what I'm referring to, I could list 75 or so books that all of this information was gleaned from but I felt that that would take up too much time.

So now I kinda understand you better, when facts are thrown @ you you dispute them and keep it moving.

Shouldn't you weigh them @ first?

I fully understand that in matters of opinion Wiki-whatever doesn't hold water since anyone can add to them, but in matters of provable fact???

You've said you have personal knowledge of such matters, have you ever heard of the Maxi-Trials that took place in Sicily back in the 80s?

How about TIME magazine to back what I and that Wikipedia page said, is that a credible source?

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,257072,00.html

It cites La Cosa Nostra and more importantly, what I was referring to, The Commission.

Are you one of those fellows that doesn't believe that the "mafia" exists or even ever existed?

I did a paper on this back in the 80s so I was well versed in the trials @ the time.

Oh, and the term "Don" does NOT appear on the Wikipedia page even once, since it is, as you pointed out, a term Mario Puzo came up with.

 

[cranrab]

those that have been duped by stringer bell's costume and feigned intelligence need to go back to my post #657 in this thread. begin at the 1:10 mark.

what you see demonstrated here is the PROFESSIONALISM (parlance notwithstanding) of avon barksdale that translates over to ANOTHER ARENA.

watch as stringer bell reacts like a shamed child, who was lost face due to his own incompetence.

avon barksdale is the COMPETENT PROFESSIONAL, stringer bell is the POSEUR INCOMPETENT.

 

[cranrab]

Re: "The Wire"

Just exactly where do you think the inspiration for the movie came from?

1) facts and wikipedia?

wikipedia's own creator has said that it is not a credible source of information.

2) as to your own research, you didn't do enough digging.

hint: i see you don't know the inspiration for the BOOK (not movie), because all of the things you mentioned came almost 2 decades AFTER the source of information for the BOOK.

3) FACTS like "la cosa nostra", eh?



i guess i'll have to keep it moving.

you've already demonstrated a prior lack of reading comprehension (your "master of organization" fiasco), now you refer to "la cosa nostra". hint: "la cosa nostra" is much like "don ___________"

i keep throwing you life lines, but you refuse to take them.

as i said before, organized crime, of course. la cosa nostra, not so much.

 

[geechiedan]

Re: "The Wire"

precisely my point. thanks for making it plain for those who needed the extra hint.

and you don't see that marlo was merely sizing up the WEAKNESS of stringer bell and prop joe?

you missed the point..marlo was not sizing up the weakness of stringer..he wasn't INTERESTED in sitting down across some conference table with him at all...as far as marlo was concerned..drug dealers hold corners and bang each other for territory..period. Its simple straight forward and you know what to expect..if you want my shit then you tool up and take it..not negotiate and deal. everything in marlo's world was black and white..prop joe and stringer was proposing dealing in shades of gray..

marlo used both of those WEAK PUSSIES, who kept offering him GIFTS. what did he provide in return?

marlo's crew was instrumental in running off and disappearing the encroaching crews from NY. Now i'm sure you will try to spin it into some kind of Machiavellian plan to usurp the coop but you keep overlooking the fact that he had no interest in joining at no point until prop joe manipulated him into thinking he had to join in order to get a better idea of the cops investigation on him.

marlo didn't mistake WEAKNESS as KINDNESS. marlo took full advantage of their stupidity and used it until they (the co-op) became worthless to him.

meh..he saw an opportunity and took..lets not make it like he's some kind of michael corleone making moves 12 steps in advance. the nigga didn't even know how to launder drug money....at least avon, string and prop joe could do that much..

 

[cranrab]

the better analogy is the one I used, the Barksdales crews were selling Oldsmobiles (inferior product) while the East siders were selling Toyotas (superior product) and therefore had the users coming to them.

You can have fewer locations (compared to Marlo) if you have superior product (Toyotas) which was why Stringer switched to Prop Joe's product and gave up half their territory.

i was trying to give other BGOL educated businessmen a chance to speak up and point out the ENORMOUS error in fact and reasoning that stringer bell adhered to (and which you appear to have taken to heart). seeing as how it's sunday and i'm willing to be charitable, i'll help you out.

ACCORDING TO YOU, oldsmobiles are inferior product. stringer bell uses the ford tempo in his example.

ACCORDING TO YOU, toyotas are superior product. stringer bell generically refers to japanese and german automobiles in his example.

ACCORDING TO YOU, product is a higher priority than territory.

here is why your example does not support your claim (and is more evidence of stringer bell's ignorance).

if toyotas are superior product, and territory matters less, then why doesn't toyota sell their cars only from japan? because territory is more important. you put your product where the buyers are.

if toyotas are superior product, and territory matters less, then why doesn't toyota sell their cars only from california and kentucky (states where they have assembly facilities)? because territory is more important. that's why they have approximately 1500 toyota dealerships in north america. and that's just the toyota brand; you could also add the lexus and scion brands and watch the number grow.

 

[cranrab]

Re: "The Wire"

Now i'm sure you will try to spin it into some kind of Machiavellian plan to usurp the coop but you keep overlooking the fact that he had no interest in joining at no point until prop joe manipulated him into thinking he had to join in order to get a better idea of the cops investigation on him.

the nigga didn't even know how to launder drug money....at least avon, string and prop joe could do that much..

i don't have to spin anything. did marlo steal the connect and eliminate the middle man? yes or no? did marlo disband the co-op immediately after it had outlived it's usefulness to him? yes or no?

WEAK MINDED, NO HEART cats like stringer bell, proposition joe and fat face rick put the source of their product on a silver platter and served it up to marlo. no matter how you want to spin it, that was extremely stupid and short sighted. not good qualities in any business leader.

like i said before, you don't see pepsi, coke or KFC handing out their secret recipes to the competition.

no disagreement about marlo not knowing about how to launder money. there were a handful of things that proposition joe taught him. no matter how you want to spin it, that was extremely stupid and short sighted. why would you want to strengthen a competitor? worse still, why would you give the competition access to contacts you've cultivated?

 

[geechiedan]

i was trying to give other BGOL educated businessmen a chance to speak up and point out the ENORMOUS error in fact and reasoning that stringer bell adhered to (and which you appear to have taken to heart). seeing as how it's sunday and i'm willing to be charitable, i'll help you out.

ACCORDING TO YOU, oldsmobiles are inferior product. stringer bell uses the ford tempo in his example.

ACCORDING TO YOU, toyotas are superior product. stringer bell generically refers to japanese and german automobiles in his example.

ACCORDING TO YOU, product is a higher priority than territory.

here is why your example does not support your claim (and is more evidence of stringer bell's ignorance).

if toyotas are superior product, and territory matters less, then why doesn't toyota sell their cars only from japan? because territory is more important. you put your product where the buyers are.

if toyotas are superior product, and territory matters less, then why doesn't toyota sell their cars only from california and kentucky (states where they have assembly facilities)? because territory is more important. that's why they have approximately 1500 toyota dealerships in north america. and that's just the toyota brand; you could also add the lexus and scion brands and watch the number grow.

I think all of these analogies are off including stringers and yours.. stringer in essence just wanted to be the bank not the manufacturer or the retailer..he was trying to set up so that all he and avon had to do was buy in bulk from the greek and prop joe then joe would sell it to the dealers who would move it however they did. He was trying to move as far away from the street level as poosible. If your buying direct from the manufacturer (the greek) then you can sell the bulk in small chunks to the dealers..it doesn't matter who eastside or westside since everyone is coming to YOU for the shit. In that regard banging on corners is pointless.

 

[cranrab]

stringer in essence just wanted to be the bank not the manufacturer or the retailer..he was trying to set up so that all he and avon had to do was buy in bulk from the greek and prop joe then joe would sell it to the dealers who would move it however they did. He was trying to move as far away from the street level as poosible. If your buying direct from the manufacturer (the greek) then you can sell the bulk in small chunks to the dealers..it doesn't matter who eastside or westside since everyone is coming to YOU for the shit. In that regard banging on corners is pointless.

from this take, at least we (you and i) appear to agree that stringer bell had NO interest in going legit.

of course, i disagree with stringer's plan (as outlined above) because in order for the above to work, you would have to ensure that all of the wholesalers and retailers are distributing your product. in the end, how did marlo accomplish this? coercion through violence and controlling TERRITORY.

that's why avon barksdale and marlo were FAR more intelligent than stringer bell could ever be. they UNDERSTOOD the game that stringer bell could not.

prior to the co-op foolishness, the barksdale organization had it's own source, proposition joe had "the greek", and independents like marlo had their own source.

slim charles UNDERSTOOD what STUPID ass stringer bell could not (1:05 mark):

 

[cranrab]

prop joe, like stringer bell, allowed his WEAKNESS to color the decisions which ultimately lead to his demise. instead of heeding sage advice from slim charles (and cheese, of all people), prop joe went ahead and gave up THE ONLY THING that was keeping him alive (2:14 mark):

 

[geechiedan]

Re: "The Wire"

i don't have to spin anything. did marlo steal the connect and eliminate the middle man? yes or no? did marlo disband the co-op immediately after it had outlived it's usefulness to him? yes or no?

WEAK MINDED, NO HEART cats like stringer bell, proposition joe and fat face rick put the source of their product on a silver platter and served it up to marlo. no matter how you want to spin it, that was extremely stupid and short sighted. not good qualities in any business leader.

like i said before, you don't see pepsi, coke or KFC handing out their secret recipes to the competition.

no disagreement about marlo not knowing about how to launder money. there were a handful of things that proposition joe taught him. no matter how you want to spin it, that was extremely stupid and short sighted. why would you want to strengthen a competitor? worse still, why would you give the competition access to contacts you've cultivated?

yes..marlo made his move but you act like he planned that shit from jump street. And stop adding stringer to this part of the debate since by this time he was dead from something that had NOTHING to do with Marlo..

And prop joe miscalculated in dealing with marlo...he thought if he came off like a mentor of sorts marlo would be appreciative and more willing to cooperate. He didn't appreciate just how vicious and shark like marlo really was. Prop Joe and the rest of the dealers really were trying to create a Commission or board of directors type of deal which would require EVERYONE to participate and cooperate..marlo just didn't care.

 

[Cock Head Jones]

how old yall think marlo was? 24-25?

 

[Djmarkxr7]

Re: "The Wire"

i wish y'all would pay closer attention to the content you claim to be a fan of.

in this scene, not only does avon refer to both of them as the "chump brothers" regarding the real estate ventures, he also reveals that he has ALWAYS doubted stringer's competence.



this is the part of the reaction to THE WIRE that really disappoints me.

on BGOL, you have supposedly Black members creating a false dichotomy between avon barksdale and stringer bell: thug v. educated man. in truth, the respective polarity is between competent v. incompetent.

the avon barksdale and marlo characters were the BRAINS that made their organizations so successful. but here on BGOL their achievements (career choice notwithstanding) are cast in a poor light when compared to A LOSER like stringer bell.

only on BGOL.

I stand corrected on "chump brothers" as I stopped the video after he first said "Trump brothers", not hearing the second time, after he stood up and said "chump brothers".

Yet STILL the context of what I'm referring to is here, while Avon DOES admonish Stringer saying that he's "not hard enough for this right here", he points out that he looks @ him "these days and you know what I see...a man without a country", referring to the fact that his mind is no longer concentrating on the drug game but in fact floating in between the two, remember though that this takes place AFTER AVON GETS OUT OF JAIL AND AFTER STRINGER HAS DONE THE FUCKUPS THAT HAVE ALREADY SEALED HIS FATE!!!

This takes place in season 3, long after the two are headed down different paths.

Any romanticism with Stringer is completely and solely due to the way he was protrayed in season one, to that end the same goes for Avon as well.

We've already covered this, @ this point in time we actually have no dispute, I've never once said that String had the heart or the guts to kill someone himself.

Listen to what Avon says, "The difference between me and you, I bleed red, you bleed green!", this is what we've been referring to, this was why he gave up territory for better product, TO MAKE MORE MONEY!!!

This was more money than from the weak, stepped on stuff they were getting from Atlanta, NOT from when they didn't have any product.

You'll also see here that the fiends were walking right thru "The Pit" aka Avon's valued territory to go to the East side to score vastly superior product.


He also said, "You have skills, yeah no doubt" as well as "Maybe, just maybe, not smart enough for them out there!"

I'm paraphrasing but while he does question his heart, he gives him his due as well, and NEVER did he say anything against the "We" part of what Stringer said.

He didn't question his competence as you say, if he did, why would he ever have him as his number two?

Michael and Duquan were friends yet Michael knew what Duquan's limits were and treated him as such.

So did Michael Corleone with Fredo, Fredo was family yet he was NEVER #2 to Michael, Michael knew better than that.

You keep saying that Avon "shielded" Stringer, that he kept "an eye" on him, even if he kept him close for friends' sake, you don't give him power, you treat him like the USVP, to give an incompetent person power only says one thing about you.

That you are incompetent yourself.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the not being "smart enough" part would refer to the fact that by this time Stringer had already asked for, and had been turned down by, Avon to take Clay Davis out.

Oh, this would still be thug vs. educated man, because BOTH were incompetent in the end.

To also cover two other items that we spoke about, Stringer understood the game, more than what you give him credit for.

Here, Stringer tells D about if they have good product, it sells, if they have bad product, it sells TWICE as much!

Can you now possibly understand just how bad their product was for him to want to cut a deal with Prop Joe, given this perhaps forgotten information?



In the very scene you posted with Stringer talking to Marlo, String already shows that he knows what you were referring to as far as having stuff in your name and that he had already come up with ways around that.

The problems in that scene are almost too many to count however:

First, Marlo is young, doesn't want to be "schooled" by anyone, and strictly sees this as an opportunity to strike.

Second, why wouldn't Marlo see it that way, Stringer comes off as a snake oil/used car salesman, talking down to someone he feels that he's smarter than.

Third, yet another blunder and total miscalculation on Stringer's part, still blinded by the money, the Co-op is really for peeps about paper, Marlo was about power.

Just like Avon.

I do believe that we agree here.

 

[cranrab]

Re: "The Wire"

stop adding stringer to this part of the debate since by this time he was dead from something that had NOTHING to do with Marlo

stringer bell didn't help create and chair the co-op?



stringer bell didn't try on multiple occasions to have marlo join the co-op?

stringer bell (post-humously) isn't absolved from his contribution to a ROYALLY STUPID idea because marlo took advantage of it after his death.

that's like saying former president bush isn't culpable for US involvement in iraq or afghanistan now simply because he isn't in office any longer.

 

[geechiedan]

from this take, at least we (you and i) appear to agree that stringer bell had NO interest in going legit.

of course, i disagree with stringer's plan (as outlined above) because in order for the above to work, you would have to ensure that all of the wholesalers and retailers are distributing your product. in the end, how did marlo accomplish this? coercion through violence and controlling TERRITORY.

that's why avon barksdale and marlo were FAR more intelligent than stringer bell could ever be. they UNDERSTOOD the game that stringer bell could not.

prior to the co-op foolishness, the barksdale organization had it's own source, proposition joe had "the greek", and independents like marlo had their own source.

slim charles UNDERSTOOD what STUPID ass stringer bell could not (1:05 mark):

and what did marlo do once he took over the greek connect??

position himself as the main supplier and set up two distribution points..monk for the westside niggas and cheese for the eastside niggas..Don't seem like marlo cared too much for holding corners then did it???

he basically did what they were doing he just consolidated it to himself. Now all the other crew could have said fuck that and revolted..did marlo have the muscle to back it up? we'll never know since shit went down before it came to that..

but marlo pretty much posited himself as the main supplier of all of Baltimore (just what stringer wanted to be) by this point in the story.

 

[cranrab]

and what did marlo do once he took over the greek connect??

position himself as the main supplier and set up two distribution points..monk for the westside niggas and cheese for the eastside niggas..Don't seem like marlo cared too much for holding corners then did it?

sweet jesus.

you for real? april 1 passed already.

i'm in here discussing a show with people that clearly didn't watch it.

after acquiring the connect, marlo continued to expand his territory on the west side (to the west and the north).

 

[geechiedan]

Re: "The Wire"

stringer bell didn't help create and chair the co-op?

yes

stringer bell didn't try on multiple occasions to have marlo join the co-op?

yes

stringer bell (posthumously) isn't absolved from his contribution to a ROYALLY STUPID idea because marlo took advantage of it after his death.

that's like saying former president bush isn't culpable for US involvement in iraq or afghanistan now simply because he isn't in office any longer.

thats not accurate...it would be as if bush set up the war in iraq and obama two years after getting into office and being able to do anything he wanted (get out or escalate)decided to nuke Baghdad then annex iraq as America jr...would you say that bush had anything to with that??

now here's a yes or no question...

did marlo join or work with the coop in any fashion in stringers lifetime? yes or no?

 

[SIDESHOW]

MY scene right here...

 

[Djmarkxr7]

Re: "The Wire"

1) facts and wikipedia?

wikipedia's own creator has said that it is not a credible source of information.

2) as to your own research, you didn't do enough digging.

hint: i see you don't know the inspiration for the BOOK (not movie), because all of the things you mentioned came almost 2 decades AFTER the source of information for the BOOK.

3) FACTS like "la cosa nostra", eh?



i guess i'll have to keep it moving.

you've already demonstrated a prior lack of reading comprehension (your "master of organization" fiasco), now you refer to "la cosa nostra". hint: "la cosa nostra" is much like "don ___________"

i keep throwing you life lines, but you refuse to take them.

as i said before, organized crime, of course. la cosa nostra, not so much.

Yes, I refer to it as La Cosa Nostra even though it is commonly known as Cosa Nostra, that is the romantic affiliation of the name, however you've made no reference to TIME magazine and the article that is only one of several hundred that refer to this group.

Lets just say organized crime so that we're clear.

You also haven't explained the what or why the writers included the word "master" in his description, the description that you said that you agree with.

He has to be good @ something for that to be a part of his description, doesn't he?

I'm understanding now that everything with you is black & white, no grey areas but some of the things we are referring to here are, in fact, grey areas.

So when we say that Stringer wanted to go "legit" we just mean he wanted to be a lot more legit than he was, but since he was still dealing drugs he could never be 100% legit.

When we say Stringer started out smart in the drug game you only see the end result, which was his own stupidity.

So perhaps we are only arguing over semantics here, sort of a glass half full/half empty sort of deal.

 

[cranrab]

Re: "The Wire"

while he does question his heart, he gives him his due as well, and NEVER did he say anything against the "We" part of what Stringer said.

He didn't question his competence as you say, if he did, why would he ever have him as his number two?

"not hard enough"

"not smart enough"

"maybe you never were"

You keep saying that Avon "shielded" Stringer, that he kept "an eye" on him, even if he kept him close for friends' sake, you don't give him power, you treat him like the USVP, to give an incompetent person power only says one thing about you.

That you are incompetent yourself.

i already addressed this several posts ago.

avon's biggest blind spot was for stringer bell. they were boys.

by all means, YES, stringer bell was avon barksdale's biggest mistake.

Can you now possibly understand just how bad their product was for him to want to cut a deal with Prop Joe, given this perhaps forgotten information?

i've always agreed the product was bad. i've always understood how poor the product was.

so what?

bad product doesn't mean disobey the organization's leader after he tells you "i'm on it".

bad product doesn't mean countermand the organization's leader.

bad product doesn't mean you have the authority to venture out and unilaterally make moves on behalf of the organization.

most certainly, bad product should not encourage a nervous, panicky bitch to make deals that move the organization BACKWARD.

 

[geechiedan]

sweet jesus.

you for real? april 1 passed already.

i'm in here discussing a show with people that clearly didn't watch it.

after acquiring the connect, marlo continued to expand his territory on the west side (to the west and the north).

really? and how do you know this? in the clip where he disbands the coop he says that if you want to reup you talk to cheese or monk.

now on the westside the biggest crew seemed to be barksdale but since he was gone marlo took over on the eastside there were several crews on the westside(there were alot of heads at the coop meetings) so how was marlo going to hold all those territories by himself?

the story didn't play out long enough to show that..

 

[geechiedan]

Re: "The Wire"

"not hard enough"

"not smart enough"

"maybe you never were"




i already addressed this several posts ago.

avon's biggest blind spot was for stringer bell. they were boys.

by all means, YES, stringer bell was avon barksdale's biggest mistake.





i've always agreed the product was bad. i've always understood how poor the product was.

so what?

bad product doesn't mean disobey the organization's leader after he tells you "i'm on it".

bad product doesn't mean countermand the organization's leader.

bad product doesn't mean you have the authority to venture out and unilaterally make moves on behalf of the organization.

most certainly, bad product should not encourage a nervous, panicky bitch to make deals that move the organization BACKWARD.

avon never acknowledge that to the degree that he should have..the NY connect he had left him. after that what was his orders to stringer..hold the towers? stay on the corners? with what??

 

[cranrab]

Re: "The Wire"

You also haven't explained the what or why the writers included the word "master" in his description, the description that you said that you agree with.

He has to be good @ something for that to be a part of his description, doesn't he?

this is getting to be so bad for you that it's almost comical.

i already said i will stipulate to the "master of organization" description.

i will even state it plainly: russell bell was a "master of organization".

so what?

I'm understanding now that everything with you is black & white, no grey areas but some of the things we are referring to here are, in fact, grey areas.

you're free to make any assumptions you care to.

but 1 conclusion you should draw is that all of my points are well reasoned and accompanied by evidence and proof.

i'm not swayed by emotion, or blinded by flash. i measure stringer bell based on the results he brought to the barksdale organization and his demonstrated (in)ability: i don't romanticize his potential, ambition, or aspiration.

So when we say that Stringer wanted to go "legit" we just mean he wanted to be a lot more legit than he was, but since he was still dealing drugs he could never be 100% legit.

financing a criminal enterprise, laundering the proceeds and otherwise structuring assets to hide the fruits of said enterprise is all criminal activity. there is no degree of legitimacy involved anywhere within.

it is disguised, but it is criminal nonetheless. you want to put lipstick on a pig, go for it.

When we say Stringer started out smart in the drug game you only see the end result, which was his own stupidity.

when you (they?) make that claim, you are arguing from ignorance (not an insult, that is the name of the fallacy). you don't have any evidence that points to any stringer bell contribution; you assume that he did something.

you (unreasonably) infer that stringer bell had a hand in the barksdale organization success. what is your evidence for such a claim?

(a) stringer bell was a member of the barksdale organization.

underwhelming would be an overstatement to describe that as "proof".

on the other hand, i have pointed to:

(a) avon's recollection of stringer as a child,

(b) avon questioning whether stringer had EVER been competent,

(c) stringer's real estate purchases which began before the show.

(d) stringer's numerous mistakes/miscalculations

 

[Djmarkxr7]

i was trying to give other BGOL educated businessmen a chance to speak up and point out the ENORMOUS error in fact and reasoning that stringer bell adhered to (and which you appear to have taken to heart). seeing as how it's sunday and i'm willing to be charitable, i'll help you out.

ACCORDING TO YOU, oldsmobiles are inferior product. stringer bell uses the ford tempo in his example.

ACCORDING TO YOU, toyotas are superior product. stringer bell generically refers to japanese and german automobiles in his example.

ACCORDING TO YOU, product is a higher priority than territory.

here is why your example does not support your claim (and is more evidence of stringer bell's ignorance).

if toyotas are superior product, and territory matters less, then why doesn't toyota sell their cars only from japan? because territory is more important. you put your product where the buyers are.

if toyotas are superior product, and territory matters less, then why doesn't toyota sell their cars only from california and kentucky (states where they have assembly facilities)? because territory is more important. that's why they have approximately 1500 toyota dealerships in north america. and that's just the toyota brand; you could also add the lexus and scion brands and watch the number grow.

Why is it that you go to extremes?

We're not talking Chevy Cobalts versus Bugatti Veyrons here, we're talking about two similar products and we're talking territory that is still close.

Every product you've brought up has good intrinsic value.

The Barksdale product @ the time, did not.

The video I just posted shows you this, a fiend walking straight past Barksdale dealers to go to the East side, Stringer even tells Avon that if you look @ the expressway you could watch as the fiends crossed over from West to East looking for good product.

If you're product is the same, territory is #1.

If you're product is weak, territory is #1.

If you're product is garbage, territory is #1

If you're product is garbage and fiends are walking past your peoples to go to rivals, it's time to change your product, it's that simple, terrotory has just become #2!

 

[cranrab]

really? and how do you know this?

all i can say is watch the show again.

hell, for that matter, watch some of the recent clips i posted.

god damn.

 

[cranrab]

Why is it that you go to extremes?

extremes?

i'm working with YOUR example (oldsmobiles v. toyotas)

i'm working with stringer bell's example (ford tempos v. japanese/german cars)

in both of those examples, it doesn't matter how superior the product is (toyota, japanese automobiles, german automobiles), because all of the foreign manufacturers EXPORT their cars to the US for sale HERE. that's TERRITORY. their superior product wouldn't mean shit sitting in japan or germany.

i'm working with my own reference to mcdonalds - more corners (literally), better distribution. that's TERRITORY.

i'm working with YOUR example (blockbuster v. netflix) - equal product, better distribution for netflix. that's TERRITORY.

 

[geechiedan]

all i can say is watch the show again.

hell, for that matter, watch some of the recent clips i posted.

god damn.

i saw the show...and marlo took over the connect, barksdale, prop joe and hungry man's territory.. after that he became the potential supplier of all of the dealer in the coop. I say potential because they (fatface rick and them) don't have to take his product..now how that would play out we don't know because after he disbanded the coop his crew got busted shortly after..after that the ONLY thing he of any worth was the connection itself which he sold to fatface rick and 'em for 10 million..

now which had more value..his territories or his connection?