** The HBO Series "The Wire" Question & Answer Thread **

[cranrab]

Re: "The Wire"

As I had pointed out already, the guy that I was referring to before was Stinkum

i pointed to this example several posts back. i used his government name, not his moniker.

Ummm, just what organization do you think that they are describing that he's a master of???

PLEASE tell me this is an april fool's joke.

otherwise this sentence is going into that other BGOL thread.

 

[cranrab]

Re: "The Wire"

I noticed you cut out the major part of my first response:

truth be told, i didn't "cut out" anything. i disregarded it because as a whole, it is comprised of logical fallacies.

the fact that he played the game as long as he did proves he wasn't the fuck up you claim he was

false.

length of service in an industry is not proof of competence in an industry.

if he was avon would have either removed him from such a roll [sic] in his organization or had him killed long ago.

again, false.

even after learning of stringer bell's numerous treacherous betrayals, it still was not avon that had stringer killed. in fact, avon still fought for stringer's life.

again, avon's greatest fault was that when it came to his childhood friend, stringer bell, he suffered fools gladly.

If stringer was such a fuck up and had been fucking up all along do you really think avon would have had him such a position for that long?

yes. see above.

avon was aware of stringer bell's STUPID "away games", but allowed stringer bell to continue his foolish dalliances.

And avon's biggest largest mistake was involving his nephew dangelo in a drug run that resulted in his getting busted and taking the 20+ years time in jail for the family.

please elaborate.

avon needed someone he trusted to make the run.

The con he got caught up in in and of itself wasn't a fatal mistake and considering how much money they were taking in from the drug side not that much of a hit.

the con he was involved with was a literal and figurative death trap.

when he chose that road (instead of walking away like marlo), it sealed his fate.

 

[PhillyTheKid]

Avon letting Brother and Omar murk Stringer was the ultimate betrayal due to the game, he could've stopped it but the game was more important to him than Stringer, just as Stringer's dream was more important to him than Avon.


Thx!

I dont know about that fam. I disagree that Avon could have stopped Brother at that point. Brother Mouzone knew the deal. He knew that stringer set him up with Omar. Avon offered Brother money to fix the situation, but Brother wasn't having it. The only thing brother wanted was Stringers head on a platter. Brother also mentioned that Avon's name would be shit with his people in New York if word of Stringers betrayal ( while acting on behalf of Avon) got out.

I guess Avon could have tried to kill Brother Mouzone to settle it, but we see how far that got Stringer when he tried to do it. Plus, I believe there would have been repercussions from New York if Avon tried to deal that way with Brother. Frankly, I didnt see any other way Avon could have handled it.

Here is the scene when Brother confronts Avon in the barbershop. Brother breaks the real shit down to Avon. Stringer had to go.

 

[cranrab]

Re: "The Wire"

Doesn't matter, bosses don't roll with soldiers.

bosses like touissant breda?

 

[O.Red]

Re: "The Wire"

The ONLY mistake stringer made was doing the co-op and thinking avon would have the same ambitions.

Are you forgetting about the mistake that got him killed?

 

[geechiedan]

Re: "The Wire"

truth be told, i didn't "cut out" anything. i disregarded it because as a whole, it is comprised of logical fallacies.



false.

length of service in an industry is not proof of competence in an industry.

Only in LEGIT business...in drug dealing incompetence gets you killed..relatively quickly as you keep pointing out. Stringer made FATAL mistakes..if he had a history of making those kinds of mistakes he wouldn't have made it that far because avon would have had to do something like enable his enemies to kill him.

again, false.

even after learning of stringer bell's numerous treacherous betrayals, it still was not avon that had stringer killed. in fact, avon still fought for stringer's life.

Avon bargained for stringers life until it came down to stringer or his drug business contacts in NY (which he wouldn't have needed had he went along with the co-op)in the end Avon made a decision based on business not loyalty..in fact it was the same type of decision stringer made with deangelo..it all came down to business in the end.

again, avon's greatest fault was that when it came to his childhood friend, stringer bell, he suffered fools gladly.



yes. see above.

avon was aware of stringer bell's STUPID "away games", but allowed stringer bell to continue his foolish dalliances.

Again the real estate stuff wasn't a problem to the drug business.

please elaborate.

avon needed someone he trusted to make the run.

i'm sure if you ask Brianna she would have named a few people in the crew who could have made that run. Bodie for instance.

the con he was involved with was a literal and figurative death trap.

when he chose that road (instead of walking away like marlo), it sealed his fate.

the real estate con itself was just a con..it had nothing to do with stinger getting killed.

 

[geechiedan]

Re: "The Wire"

Are you forgetting about the mistake that got him killed?

that was the mistake that got him killed...

if stringer didn't get into business with prop joe by way of the co-op (something avon would never have done himself since he HATED east side baltimore niggas and prop joe especially)he would have never tried to run off mouzone by playing omar against him. That set into motion events that pit avon's loyalty vs his business with stringers life in the balance.

The co-op was a good idea but avon..like marlo was just a pure gangbanger who never saw or WANTED to see past the street level.

everything else stringer did...killing deangelo...the real estate deals..even breaking the sunday truce didn't matter...didn't look good but it didn't matter in the grand scheme of things.

the existence of co-op itself was the fatal mistake for stringer.

 

[Djmarkxr7]

I dont know about that fam. I disagree that Avon could have stopped Brother at that point. Brother Mouzone knew the deal. He knew that stringer set him up with Omar. Avon offered Brother money to fix the situation, but Brother wasn't having it. The only thing brother wanted was Stringers head on a platter. Brother also mentioned that Avon's name would be shit with his people in New York if word of Stringers betrayal ( while acting on behalf of Avon) got out.

I guess Avon could have tried to kill Brother Mouzone to settle it, but we see how far that got Stringer when he tried to do it. Plus, I believe there would have been repercussions from New York if Avon tried to deal that way with Brother. Frankly, I didnt see any other way Avon could have handled it.

Here is the scene when Brother confronts Avon in the barbershop. Brother breaks the real shit down to Avon. Stringer had to go.

This goes to what I said, he could've chosen to take Brother out but he wanted to keep his NY connect.

Plus, when you add in what Stringer had already done, Avon might've felt that was just the way to go anyway.

 

[cranrab]

Re: "The Wire"

the real estate con itself was just a con..it had nothing to do with stinger getting killed.

like a moth to a flame.

like a siren song leading sailors to the rocks.

like a illusory desert oasis.

the con was the death trap that lured the sucker into the game; a game that he was unprepared to play on his own; a rough game for grown ups that avon had shielded him from his entire life.

 

[Djmarkxr7]

Re: "The Wire"

i pointed to this example several posts back. i used his government name, not his moniker.

So I guess that means you agree with what I said about how the business was run, eh?

PLEASE tell me this is an april fool's joke.

otherwise this sentence is going into that other BGOL thread.

Hey, I didn't write the bio, THE SHOWS' WRITERS DID!

I suppose they could have been talking about his apartment, but is that really important enough to include in a character bio?

 

[cranrab]

Re: "The Wire"

I suppose they could have been talking about his apartment, but is that really important enough to include in a character bio?

DJM,

i've really enjoyed our discussion, because THE WIRE is a fantastic show. i'm glad that you're a fan. SINCERELY.

but it's clear that you aren't prepared to continue THIS PARTICULAR discussion.

brother, the description "master of organization" is NOT a reference to ANY organization. in the description "master of organization", "organization" is a tool, or skill, not a tangible entity.

hence the martha stewart reference, which flew completely over your head.

edit: think of it in the same way as when someone says "master of kung fu" or "master of karate".

 

[Djmarkxr7]

Re: "The Wire"

bosses like touissant breda?

He was an exception, NOT the rule!

Remember Nat Turner?

 

[cranrab]

Re: "The Wire"

everything else stringer did...killing deangelo...the real estate deals..even breaking the sunday truce didn't matter...didn't look good but it didn't matter in the grand scheme of things.

the existence of co-op itself was the fatal mistake for stringer.

all the pieces matter.

the co-op was another in a long string (no pun intended) of grand failures.

what better way to serve up their heads collectively on a single platter to marlo?



greenlighting the hit on church sunday was not a simply a PR failure in the neighborhood, it was a MAJOR tactical error. omar had decided to squash beef with the barksdale organization. he was through. it was stringer bell's moronic greenlight decision which renewed omar's ire and breathed new life into the vendetta.

 

[Djmarkxr7]

Re: "The Wire"

DJM,

i've really enjoyed our discussion, because THE WIRE is a fantastic show. i'm glad that you're a fan. SINCERELY.

but it's clear that you aren't prepared to continue THIS PARTICULAR discussion.

brother, the description "master of organization" is NOT a reference to ANY organization. in the description "master of organization", "organization" is a tool, or skill, not a tangible entity.

hence the martha stewart reference, which flew completely over your head.

(added later)edit: think of it in the same way as when someone says "master of kung fu" or "master of karate".

Your statement is true, I was actually being glib when I said that, but where exactly do you think they had him apply this "skill" and more importantly, why did they include that in his bio?

Once again, here, by the addition of the simple modifier "Thinking that he was..." changes the whole connotation of his description.

Edit for added statement: A "master of kung fu" or "master of karate" still means that the person can fight dam good, right?

See, it has to be applied to something, why wouldn't you apply it to what he did on the show?

Simply stated, if the show is about a drug organization, and the writers describe him as a "master of organization", why are you asking for scrap paper when the question is what is 1+1?

Put the show in context, Stringer made several good moves in season one, including taking out the pay phones and haing Bodie and Poot take out Wallace.

Remember that McNulty commented to Daniels after they found Wallace's body, "That lets Stringer off the hook!".

That was the reason why Stringer WASN'T arrested with Avon.

I DID understand the Martha Stewart reference, but did YOU understand my response?

Martha Stewart is a billionaire, has been successful in a multitude of business ventures, and only went to jail for basically receiving a phone call and lying about said phone call.

So, even though she went to jail, it wasn't thru any action on her part that had her originally break the law, which is why I said what I said, I felt that it was a bad analogy.

 

[geechiedan]

Re: "The Wire"

like a moth to a flame.

like a siren song leading sailors to the rocks.

like a illusory desert oasis.

the con was the death trap that lured the sucker into the game; a game that he was unprepared to play on his own; a rough game for grown ups that avon had shielded him from his entire life.

dude cmon...avon didn't shield string from anything..avon didn't CARE about the real estate shit or the legit side.

now you can ask the question: would string have made those move had avon not gone to jail?

I think stringer would have tried to sell it to avon would have turned it down just on the face of partnering with eastside niggas and string would have dropped the co-op but still moved on the real estate which avon would have dismissed as stringers pet project that doesn't interfere with the business.

all the pieces matter.

the co-op was another in a long string (no pun intended) of grand failures.

what better way to serve up their heads collectively on a single platter to marlo?

yeah..because everyone knew that marlo was gonna pull a power play like that c'mon dude..wtf

greenlighting the hit on church sunday was not a simply a PR failure in the neighborhood, it was a MAJOR tactical error. omar had decided to squash beef with the barksdale organization. he was through. it was stringer bell's moronic greenlight decision which renewed omar's ire and breathed new life into the vendetta.

no one knew omar had dropped his feud...it wasn't like he put up a billboard saying the war's over..as far as anyone was concerned omar still had a contract on his head. What added insult to injury was that he tried to hit him on a sunday.

 

[DaAssWatcher]

Re: "The Wire"

If I had to go to war with any of tha hitters on tha wire Weebay>>>>>>>>>>>Everyone else.Weebay took his bullets when they came and ate them and was back on tha grind tha next day.Only motherfucka to put a REAL hurting on Omar when shooting it out.
Omar was hurting 4 real.He had to call tha laws it was so bad.

I miss this show.

 

[DaAssWatcher]

Re: "The Wire"

no one knew omar had dropped his feud...it wasn't like he put up a billboard saying the war's over..as far as anyone was concerned omar still had a contract on his head. What added insult to injury was that he tried to hit him on a sunday.

Tha only truce was till shit colled down but tha second Omar started slipping and Barksdale boys would have put him in a coffin.Truce with Omar was neva gonna go down.He was a walking corpse to them.

 

[cranrab]

Re: "The Wire"

yeah..because everyone knew that marlo was gonna pull a power play like that

c'mon dude..wtf

so you're prepared to give stringer bell a pass on that because he lacked foresight enough to see that it was a bad idea?

c'mon dude.

what you're suggesting is that competitors should share trade secrets?

do pepsi or coca cola or KFC share their secret recipe with the competition?



seems to me that people keep gifting me MORE evidence of stringer bell's glaring incompetence.

 

[Djmarkxr7]

Re: "The Wire"

false.

length of service in an industry is not proof of competence in an industry.

That works in the legit world, as geechiedan pointed out, NOT in the drug world, which is why Stringer went down relatively quick AFTER he started making his mistakes.

This was why I made the point about Fredo surviving for so long, he would have been long dead if Michael wasn't his brother.

again, false.

even after learning of stringer bell's numerous treacherous betrayals, it still was not avon that had stringer killed. in fact, avon still fought for stringer's life.

again, avon's greatest fault was that when it came to his childhood friend, stringer bell, he suffered fools gladly.

If Avon didn't take him out, somebody else would have, just for being a fuck-up, more importantly, Avon wouldn't have left him in charge if he was such a fuck-up!

yes. see above.

avon was aware of stringer bell's STUPID "away games", but allowed stringer bell to continue his foolish dalliances.

Avon would have marginalized Stringer, the same way Michael did Fredo, remember that by the time their mother died Fredo had no power, he wasn't even a consultant.

To Avon, Stringers' "away games" were foolish because he didn't care to be involved with that side of the world, his life was the game, plain and simple.

Avon, like Marlo, was only concerned about his name and the power he had in the streets, nowhere else.[/B]

the con he was involved with was a literal and figurative death trap.

when he chose that road (instead of walking away like marlo), it sealed his fate.

How do you figure this?

With the drug money he had coming in this was still a side business, even though the federal grants weren't coming he still needed to finish building first and then rent out when the were done.

As far as I remember, Clay was running the con on properties like that one being renovated but there were others that they simply were going to sell back to the city @ a huge profit.

I still have to go back and watch but I remember the convo Lester was having with Clay and Clay saying that he had a pigeon, some dealer by the name of Bell.

His fate was sealed when he made the deal with Prop Joe, Avon called in Brother thinking his territory was being taken over when, in fact, Stringer had given it away.

 

[cranrab]

Re: "The Wire"

This was why I made the point about Fredo surviving for so long, he would have been long dead if Michael wasn't his brother.

that was my point, was it not?

If Avon didn't take him out, somebody else would have, just for being a fuck-up, more importantly, Avon wouldn't have left him in charge if he was such a fuck-up!

Avon would have marginalized Stringer, the same way Michael did Fredo, remember that by the time their mother died Fredo had no power, he wasn't even a consultant.

To Avon, Stringers' "away games" were foolish because he didn't care to be involved with that side of the world, his life was the game, plain and simple.

wrong. avon said "chump brothers"; avon kept a watchful eye, took in how everything was going down, and knew that his childhood friend (who was never very prudent back then either) was getting played.

How do you figure this?

I still have to go back and watch

you answer your own question.

edit: before you watch the finale again, inventory the development property, then listen to clay davis, then listen to andy krawczyk and marlo.

 

[geechiedan]

Re: "The Wire"

so you're prepared to give stringer bell a pass on that because he lacked foresight enough to see that it was a bad idea?

c'mon dude.

what you're suggesting is that competitors should share trade secrets?

do pepsi or coca cola or KFC share their secret recipe with the competition?



seems to me that people keep gifting me MORE evidence of stringer bell's glaring incompetence.

what are you talking about?? pepsi and coke?? this is just niggas selling heroin..there was only one good product and pretty much everyone agreed that prop joe had it..

you have to admit the co-op worked..the dealers did cooperate and still do well past string and prop joe.

Where stringer miscalculated was thinking avon would be down with it and not just be a straight up gangbanger thru and thru..

 

[cranrab]

Re: "The Wire"

you have to admit the co-op worked..the dealers did cooperate and still do well past string and prop joe.

let's get something straight.

the co-op was a miserable failure, and the instrument of MANY members demise.

that's my measuring stick.

now where i could see it having POTENTIAL was if invitations had been extended exclusively to the members who shunned violence and really didn't have the fortitude for the violent side of the game: fat face rick, stringer bell, prop joe.

 

[Djmarkxr7]

Re: "The Wire"

so you're prepared to give stringer bell a pass on that because he lacked foresight enough to see that it was a bad idea?

c'mon dude.

what you're suggesting is that competitors should share trade secrets?

do pepsi or coca cola or KFC share their secret recipe with the competition?



seems to me that people keep gifting me MORE evidence of stringer bell's glaring incompetence.

Actually, the Co-op itself wasn't a bad idea, Prop Joe vastly underestimated Marlo, I can't put that one on Stringer.

Coke doesn't share secrets with Pepsi but they do work together as far as rules governing trucking since that concerns BOTH companies.

Remember that it was the Co-op together that dealt with the incursion from NY.

All of them settling differences in that room instead of in the streets saved them undue police scrutiny.

That's what the Co-op was for, that and getting themselves a better price on product since they were buying in bulk, it was Prop Joe that went overboard showing everything to Marlo.

Let's not forget that it was Omar stealing the BIG shipment that facilitated a lot of what Marlo did as far as Joe was concerned.

 

[cranrab]

Re: "The Wire"

what are you talking about?? pepsi and coke?? this is just niggas selling heroin

there was only one good product and pretty much everyone agreed that prop joe had it.

yes, and the meek sheep openly shared it with everyone, and eventually a wolf came and snatched it (and his life) from him.

i guess cpm giving it's os to bill gates was a good idea too.

 

[cranrab]

Re: "The Wire"

Remember that it was the Co-op together that dealt with the incursion from NY.

All of them settling differences in that room instead of in the streets saved them undue police scrutiny.

That's what the Co-op was for, that and getting themselves a better price on product since they were buying in bulk, it was Prop Joe that went overboard showing everything to Marlo.

if you look into the motive for all of this you've listed above, the common denominator was FEAR and COWARDICE. that's how prop joe operated since he was a kid. he knew his shortcomings and manipulated others in doing the dirty work.

if stringer bell had had an ounce of INTELLIGENCE he would've stayed the fuck out of the co-op.

marlo disbanded that stupid bullshit, didn't he?

 

[geechiedan]

Re: "The Wire"

yes, and the meek sheep openly shared it with everyone, and eventually a wolf came and snatched it (and his life) from him.

i guess cpm giving it's os to bill gates was a good idea too.

see Djmarkxr7 post which pretty much spells it out..

also gangsters are gangsters...prop joe made a mistake (and it cost him his life) that has nothing to do with stringer. The way marlo was rolling he would have butted heads with the eastside niggas eventually.

 

[cranrab]

Re: "The Wire"

prop joe made a mistake (and it cost him his life) that has nothing to do with stringer.

da fuck?

stringer bell didn't meet with marlo multiple times to extend the olive branch and the benefits of membership?



marlo said bet, and beat both them bitches at their high brow posturing.



anyone ever seen a turkey in a suit before? here's a 9 minute video of one:

 

[cranrab]

here is marlo seeing right through stringer bell and his costume:

 

[Djmarkxr7]

Re: "The Wire"

let's get something straight.

the co-op was a miserable failure, and the instrument of MANY members demise.

that's my measuring stick.

now where i could see it having POTENTIAL was if invitations had been extended exclusively to the members who shunned violence and really didn't have the fortitude for the violent side of the game: fat face rick, stringer bell, prop joe.

???

The only people killed for directly being in the Co-op were Prop Joe and Hungry Man.

And Hungry Man was only killed by Marlo to have an in with Cheese to later betray Prop Joe.

Cheese was straight up killed for being a hothead by Slim Charles.

Remember that in the series finale the new Co-op heads, Slim Charles and Fat Face Rick, were meeting with The Greek, how is that a failure?

 

[cranrab]

Re: "The Wire"

The only people killed for directly being in the Co-op were Prop Joe and Hungry Man.

And Hungry Man was only killed by Marlo to have an in with Cheese to later betray Prop Joe.

Cheese was straight up killed for being a hothead by Slim Charles.

Remember that in the series finale the new Co-op heads, Slim Charles and Fat Face Rick, were meeting with The Greek, how is that a failure?

how is that a co-op?

 

[Djmarkxr7]

Re: "The Wire"

if you look into the motive for all of this you've listed above, the common denominator was FEAR and COWARDICE. that's how prop joe operated since he was a kid. he knew his shortcomings and manipulated others in doing the dirty work.

if stringer bell had had an ounce of INTELLIGENCE he would've stayed the fuck out of the co-op.

marlo disbanded that stupid bullshit, didn't he?

THINK about what happend there, the Co-op went to war with NY, NOT the individual drug dealers.

Marlo had no taste for business, and had no skill working with others which is why he dissolved the Co-op, and from what I can remember, that is WHY he left the party as well.

It wasn't that he saw a con, he didn't understand anything going on (that Levy was talking about) to begin with.

In terms of the streets and in particular, the drug trade Marlo was a shark, however, in terms of handling real business Marlo was a fish out of water.

That is why @ the end we see him back in the streets, f'ing with a crew on the corner, because the streets were part and parcel of WHO he was!

This was why, after Prop Joe showed him his money trick, he made that trip to actually see his money, Marlo didn't trust anything beyond what he could see and touch, in that respect he had no "vision".

You're calling the Co-op stupid but I suggest that you look up La Cosa Nostra, crime families have been doing it for over a century, it's just another way of doing business.

Most of the big time gangsters you can name were @ some point members, including Scarface himself, Al Capone.

Help: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicilian_Mafia

 

[Djmarkxr7]

Re: "The Wire"

how is that a co-op?

First, only Prop Joe met with the Greek, after it was only Marlo.

Remember Marlo's deal to get out of jail was to leave the drug game so he sold his connect to the ENTIRE Co-op for 10 million.

They paid it and just before the credits roll we see Slim Charles and Fat Face Rick, the new heads of the Co-op, meeting with the Greek.

Here's help: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Day_Co-Op

 

[geechiedan]

Re: "The Wire"

THINK about what happend there, the Co-op went to war with NY, NOT the individual drug dealers.

Marlo had no taste for business, and had no skill working with others which is why he dissolved the Co-op, and from what I can remember, that is WHY he left the party as well.

It wasn't that he saw a con, he didn't understand anything going on (that Levy was talking about) to begin with.

In terms of the streets and in particular, the drug trade Marlo was a shark, however, in terms of handling real business Marlo was a fish out of water.

That is why @ the end we see him back in the streets, f'ing with a crew on the corner, because the streets were part and parcel of WHO he was!

This was why, after Prop Joe showed him his money trick, he made that trip to actually see his money, Marlo didn't trust anything beyond what he could see and touch, in that respect he had no "vision".

You're calling the Co-op stupid but I suggest that you look up La Cosa Nostra, crime families have been doing it for centuries, it's just another way of doing business.

Most of the big time gangsters you can name were @ some point members, including Scarface himself, Al Capone.

best answer by far..

 

[geechiedan]

Re: "The Wire"

da fuck?

stringer bell didn't meet with marlo multiple times to extend the olive branch and the benefits of membership?

and he turned down or ignored stringer multiple times..then string was killed..

marlo said bet, and beat both them bitches at their high brow posturing.

string was dead by the time he joined the co-op...so that had nothing to do with it. He only joined the co-op when he discovered the cops were tailing him and prop joe came off like he had inside info on it...only IF marlo joined.

see Djmarkxr7's post for the rest of what happened.

 

[shaddyvillethug]

Re: "The Wire"

Marlo is a character in a television series ahead of time