** The HBO Series "The Wire" Question & Answer Thread **

[Complex]

i presume you meant stringer bell.

the avon barksdale organization was clearly faced with an obstacle. everyone in here sees it. inferior product and dwindling client base.

the question posed by TMM was whether or not stringer bell's expedient choice to strike a deal with prop joe was a good one.

it was not.

there are always options. nervous bitches make stupid moves when pressure is applied.

you can also see who the stringer bell fanboys are based on their responses. pretending as though stringer bell entered into the pact with prop joe solely based on saving the enterprise.

So what was the option then

Saying they're always other options, and actually providing one are two different things. Avon gave one option, Atlanta, which was bullshit.

He gave up Avon, because he wanted to handle shit like a legit businessman and he saw that Avon wasn't going to give up that gangsta shit like worrying about those damn corners. He was trying to tell the nigga that they had real property now and they could move on, but Avon wasn't comfortable with that shit, the same way Marlo was uncomfortable in the last episode, when Levy was introducing him around to the who's who and Marlo said fuck that shit and went back to the hood and slapped a nigga. String couldn't see any other way, but to cut Avon loose. But both String and Avon were kind of right. They should have met in the middle. One of the funniest scenes in the show to me was when String found out he was played and wanted to hit Clay Davis and Avon said "I think big man gone have to sit this one out Boss" "They saw your ghetto ass coming from miles away nigga" You need a day of the Jackal type nigga for this shit.

Avon and Stringer were like the yin and yang and balanced each other out. That's the way they had always played it.

Stringer got big headed and used to being in charge and making decisions.

 

[Djmarkxr7]

When was the last time you seen the show? Your memory is a little cloudy on this one Avon bringing in Brother was a result of Stringer saying he did not have the muscle to hold down the towers. Stringer did not bring in Prop Joe's people until the episode after that. Remember Prop Joe was not going to send his people to the towers when he learned that Brother was going to be there

You're correct, it has been a minute, but when I originally responded to these posts I had just seen it, I do remember that Stringer told Prop Joe he THOUGHT that they had a week before Brother showed up, however, do you remember the reason WHY, outside of Wee-Bay having to disappear, he was running short on muscle & people to begin with?

No Avon heard him (See Brother being sent) Stringer just was foolhardy and went for quick buck instead of being patient....

Ya'll keep saying quick buck, when has a crackhead EVER said, "Thanks but no thanks, I DON'T WANT YOUR SHIT!" and kept it moving, just to get beaten up?!?

You're confusing low sales with no sales PERIOD, Bodie & Poot both expressed this to Stringer, Avon knew that there was a problem, but he didn't resolve it in a timely manner, my earlier analogy still stands, if two dealers are selling Yugos and Benzes for the same price, how long do you think the Yugo seller would remain in business?

It would go down the same way, first he would lose real estate, then he would lose the business, if the two dealers are selling Chevy's vs Dodges, no problem, the disparity was too great, their stuff wasn't just weak, they were essentially selling baby powder, and NOBODY was buying it, exactly what territory is their to defend when you have nothing to sell?

The thing you are missing is that the territory that was given up made them look weak and when the wolves saw this it made them think that they could move in. A "Marlo" coming in and testing the Barksdale organization was predictable. If Stringer was to had held on to all the towers it would have made the outside world see that the organization was strong and would have made their life after the towers came down easier. The mistake Stringer made was that he underestimated the role "Power" played in "The Game". Sure using Prop Joe's dope boosted their sales in the short term but the territory they gave up in the end made them LOOK vulnerable and that far outweighs the momentary boost in sales that deal made. There was a reason that Avon & Marlo were about "their corners". They knew the more corners they held the more power they wielded the more stable their organization. Question: When Marlo held the crown who made a play to take it?

I agree on the territory, especially from Avon's POV, it was HIS name that was in the street NOT Stringer, which is why Stringer had no problem giving up the territory, no doubt, but that STILL takes us back to the original point, they had NO drug sales, exactly what money pays for this muscle, what drugs were going to be sold @ the corners this muscle was protecting, and remember, people weren't buying from Avon's people PERIOD, what good is territory w/o product?

IF you have garbage product that no one is buying, exactly how do you think that makes you look?

Another way it could be said that Stringer f'd up is continuing to step on the garbage product the same way, would anyone here advocate taking a short on profits until the supply improved, because as it was Stringer wasn't trying to hear this, and neither was Avon.

To answer your question Marlo was in the position Avon was to start the show, he was a relative unknown to rank & file police officers, he had a "legend" surrounding him same as Avon's family did, and before the cops started making moves on Avon, nobody made a move on him, same as Marlo.

This just illustrates how fluid the game was, but remember Marlo never had a supply problem, giving the Barksdale organization a supply problem was the plot device used to advance the story, again as both cranrab & I pointed out, selling BS product was NEVER a problem before, as noted in the convo between D'Angelo and Stringer in Orlando's, but later the writer's distinctly MADE IT AN ISSUE!

 

[Teknique310]

avon barksdale may have been schooled in a fully functional operation, but he made his own.

recall the timeline when the series takes off.

they tell you how long avon barksdale took over and controlled the tower operations.

you may need to rewatch season one, because it was d'angelo's murder case that was the straw that broke the camel's back, not a murder case involving avon.

also, it was stringer bell's hubris in the courtroom that stoked mcnulty's ire.

Not completely accurate. McNulty was in court because they had beat his own murder investigation. And a good detective shows up to court to spec family & friends.

Murders bring the police. Remember " why cant you just sell the shit & move on ".

Funking brings heat.

 

[cranrab]

Instituted changes in the oraganization that fit his leadership qualities and goals.

that's being overly generous.

many of his decisions were based on being a nervous emotional bitch.

entering into the deal with prop joe. people conveniently forget stringer bell's futile attempts to apply his book learning to his criminal enterprise. rename the product. imposing english parliamentary procedure during meetings. his frustration got the better of him.

pitting omar little against brother mouzone. that's what happens when you're too pussy to get your own hands dirty. not to mention omar little and brother mouzone uncovered stringer bell's ploy.

killing d'angelo. whether 1 agrees or disagrees in the necessity, there is no denying that stringer bell arrived at his decision out of fear.

wanting slim charles to kill clay davis. no further elaboration required. i hope.

 

[richlove]

you may need to rewatch season one, because it was d'angelo's murder case that was the straw that broke the camel's back, not a murder case involving avon.

also, it was stringer bell's hubris in the courtroom that stoked mcnulty's ire.

What do you mean broke the camel's back? From what I remember..and I watched the whole series within the last two months...Avon was untouchable and pretty much not even known, by face. What set any type of real investigation in place was Mcnutty, as bubs called him, going to that judge and giving him the lowdown on Barksdale. I thought they pretty much got off on D's murder case and the shit that got them in deeper shit was the murder of one of Avon's side hoes? Show was interesting as fuck, but has a shitload of details to remember.

 

[cranrab]

McNulty was in court because they had beat his own murder investigation.

they had beat many murder cases, including one by little kevin.

i never mentioned a reason for mcnulty being in the courtroom.

i specifically referenced what is was that stoked his ire.

intimidating the witness into recanting prior testimony was the major insult; what was the icing on the cake?

 

[moblack]

Not completely accurate. McNulty was in court because they had beat his own murder investigation. And a good detective shows up to court to spec family & friends.

Murders bring the police. Remember " why cant you just sell the shit & move on ".

Funking brings heat.

Bruh you just basically copied what he posted.

 

[cranrab]

What do you mean broke the camel's back?

see above.

and reference the dialogue between mcnulty and judge phelan

 

[Complex]

What do you mean broke the camel's back? From what I remember..and I watched the whole series within the last two months...Avon was untouchable and pretty much not even known, by face. What set any type of real investigation in place was Mcnutty, as bubs called him, going to that judge and giving him the lowdown on Barksdale. I thought they pretty much got off on D's murder case and the shit that got them in deeper shit was the murder of one of Avon's side hoes? Show was interesting as fuck, but has a shitload of details to remember.

It was the Gant hit by Bird

 

[Teknique310]

that's being overly generous.

many of his decisions were based on being a nervous emotional bitch.

entering into the deal with prop joe. people conveniently forget stringer bell's futile attempts to apply his book learning to his criminal enterprise. rename the product. imposing english parliamentary procedure during meetings. his frustration got the better of him.

pitting omar little against brother mouzone. that's what happens when you're too pussy to get your own hands dirty. not to mention omar little and brother mouzone uncovered stringer bell's ploy.

killing d'angelo. whether 1 agrees or disagrees in the necessity, there is no denying that stringer bell arrived at his decision out of fear.

wanting slim charles to kill clay davis. no further elaboration required. i hope.

I'll use Apple as an example. The boss dies - Steve Jobs. He was the idea guy & had the fortitude to push & shape his people - the engineers.

Tim Cook takes over & he is doing things Jobs had no intention of doing. Dividend pay out ,the mini ipad, a lackluster & almost unchanged Iphone 5 etc. Cook is pushed around by the board = the environment & doing things his way. He will be replaced if he misses quarterlies 2 or 3 times.

Stringer was operations & Avon was chief. When the chief is gone , most times the 2nd in command takes over. And change is going to happen. Wether he was bitch or not , matters none. He was the air to the throne. Until unseated.

 

[Teknique310]

they had beat many murder cases, including one by little kevin.

i never mentioned a reason for mcnulty being in the courtroom.

i specifically referenced what is was that stoked his ire.

intimidating the witness into recanting prior testimony was the major insult; what was the icing on the cake?

"i" has nothing to do with it.

McNutty was in court out of curiosity & following up.

> Who is this crew that beat me out of a murder charge ?

 

[cranrab]

So what was the option then

Saying they're always other options, and actually providing one are two different things.

selling out to the competition and making unilateral moves against (not in parallel, but opposed to) avon are options that should NEVER be considered.

the option was to give avon barksdale more time to find a solution.

people like to frame avon and marlo as nothing more than thugs, but they both were calculating problem solvers.

 

[cranrab]

Wether he was bitch or not , matters none. He was the air to the throne. Until unseated.

unintentionally apropos.

stringer bell was air to the throne, not the heir to the throne.

and the analogy is poor. avon was not dead. criminal organizations are run from inside ALL THE TIME.

 

[Teknique310]

unintentionally apropos.

stringer bell was air to the throne, not the heir to the throne.

and the analogy is poor. avon was not dead. criminal organizations are run from inside ALL THE TIME.

Good catch.

And criminal organizations are never the same once they run from inside. Limited contact means limited leadership.

Once a boss goes remote the business changes. IE Bill Gates stepping back.

Or one you might like. Jerry Buss stepping back and putting Jim Buss out front.

 

[cranrab]

It was the Gant hit by Bird

incorrect.

it was d'angelo's murder of pooh blanchard.

 

[Complex]

selling out to the competition and making unilateral moves against (not in parallel, but opposed to) avon are options that should NEVER be considered.

the option was to give avon barksdale more time to find a solution.

people like to frame avon and marlo as nothing more than thugs, but they both were calculating problem solvers.

How was he supposed to find a solution locked up

incorrect.

it was d'angelo's murder of pooh blanchard.

I think it was Gant and Bird.

The D'Angelo shit got McNulty's eye, but the witness shit was a bigger deal to the police, judge and it also got in the press. That's what got the wire taps. The shit would have been over with some hand to hands.

 

[geechiedan]

that's being overly generous.

many of his decisions were based on being a nervous emotional bitch.

entering into the deal with prop joe. people conveniently forget stringer bell's futile attempts to apply his book learning to his criminal enterprise. rename the product. imposing english parliamentary procedure during meetings. his frustration got the better of him.

pitting omar little against brother mouzone. that's what happens when you're too pussy to get your own hands dirty. not to mention omar little and brother mouzone uncovered stringer bell's ploy.

killing d'angelo. whether 1 agrees or disagrees in the necessity, there is no denying that stringer bell arrived at his decision out of fear.

wanting slim charles to kill clay davis. no further elaboration required. i hope.

The prop joe deal was because THERE WAS NO GOOD PRODUCT COMING IN!!! what don't you get about that??

Getting omar involved was also joe's initial idea. And the only reason omar and mouzone even found out about that was because omars first shot didn't kill him and omar hesitated to follow thru..something he normally doesn't do.

And if killing deanglo was a sign of fear then marlo is the biggest bitch walking because he killed A LOT of his own crew out of fear.

 

[cranrab]

Good catch.

And criminal organizations are never the same once they run from inside. Limited contact means limited leadership.

tell that to the mexican mafia.

only time a serious impact (like the type you're referencing) is made on leadership is with solitary, like pelican bay SHU.

 

[geechiedan]

selling out to the competition and making unilateral moves against (not in parallel, but opposed to) avon are options that should NEVER be considered.

the option was to give avon barksdale more time to find a solution.

people like to frame avon and marlo as nothing more than thugs, but they both were calculating problem solvers.

and what you KEEP missing is that Avon had no options ALL of this connects FELL THRU!!!!

sending brother mouzone to hold the towers was pointless if theres no business going in and out of them.

 

[ScottyPiffen745]

selling out to the competition and making unilateral moves against (not in parallel, but opposed to) avon are options that should NEVER be considered.

the option was to give avon barksdale more time to find a solution.

people like to frame avon and marlo as nothing more than thugs, but they both were calculating problem solvers.

String gave Avon time and got shit.

Avon wasn't going to find better product than the product the Co-op was going to get from the Greeks. Nobody in Baltimore could and that's why ALL the dealers in town joined the co-op.

All that "sell bad product at twice the price" shit went out the window when every other dealer on the street had the better shit from The Greek.

In season one, they could've got away with selling bad product because Stringer said "shit is weak all over", meaning nobody's dope was better than anybody else's.

 

[cranrab]

The prop joe deal was because THERE WAS NO GOOD PRODUCT COMING IN!!! what don't you get about that??

all caps, exclamation points? really. why so emotional?

i already acknowledged it was an obstacle. everyone here agrees on that.

you feel that stringer bell's expedient choice was a good one. we see you are strongly devoted to that position. doesn't mean it's the correct one.

stringer bell's choice was not prudent or wise.

Getting omar involved was also joe's initial idea.

yes. 1 bitch who didn't like to get his hands dirty (and manipulated people to do his bidding) pulled a jedi mind trick on a weak and malleable mind.

if killing deanglo was a sign of fear then marlo is the biggest bitch walking because he killed A LOT of his own crew out of fear.

ok. thanks.

 

[Teknique310]

tell that to the mexican mafia.

only time a serious impact (like the type you're referencing) is made on leadership is with solitary, like pelican bay SHU.

Tell that to all that "greenlights" that have broken away from La Eme.

 

[cranrab]

String gave Avon time and got shit.

then he needed to wait some more.

as i said before. he needed to hold his water. maintain discipline.

Avon wasn't going to find better product than the product the Co-op was going to get from the Greeks. Nobody in Baltimore could and that's why ALL the dealers in town joined the co-op.

this and all that followed is irrelevant for the current discussion, because it has never been a point of contention or disagreement. i believe we can stipulate that the greek had the best product. so what?

 

[ScottyPiffen745]

and what you KEEP missing is that Avon had no options ALL of this connects FELL THRU!!!!

sending brother mouzone to hold the towers was pointless if theres no business going in and out of them.

Just like Marlo, Avon thought he could keep the dope money flowing by just killing the competition, murdering the dealers with the good dope and the good locations. But killing people brings the cops and now EVERYBODY in town got better dope. Avon would've had to murk all of West Baltimore to keep them towers running.

So that's why both Avon and Marlo eventually started getting supplied by The Co-op/Greeks.

 

[cranrab]

Tell that to all that "greenlights" that have broken away from Le Eme.

shit happens.

with as many groups that are paying tax under that umbrella, there's going to be what you like to think of as "spillage".

they square things up down the road. always do, 1 way or another.

 

[Diamels]

How was he supposed to find a solution locked up

You know you have some of your best drug connnects in prison right? If you do not think so look up the Rayful Edmond story...

 

[cranrab]

that's why ALL the dealers in town joined the co-op.

and this is false also.

there was another reason given.

recall prop joe's pitch.

 

[Complex]

You know you have some of your best drug connnects in prison right? If you do not think so look up the Rayful Edmond story...

He was in a federal prison. Stringer was local.

Remember he was running the prison and eating KFC and playing video games. There wasn't anyone else of consequence there.

 

[ScottyPiffen745]

then he needed to wait some more.

as i said before. he needed to hold his water. maintain discipline.



this and all that followed is irrelevant for the current discussion, because it has never been a point of contention or disagreement. i believe we can stipulate that the greek had the best product. so what?

Wait on what? Avon gave up looking for another supplier. He told String to go ahead and link up with the co-op because he (Avon) ran out of options.

 

[cranrab]

You know you have some of your best drug connnects in prison right? If you do not think so look up the Rayful Edmond story...

or willie lloyd.

 

[Diamels]

People want to cap for Stringer but the fact he could not look for a supplier on his own should tell how much he really knew about the business. Dude is in the drug business and cannot even begin to look for a supplier, he gotta go to Avon. FOH...

 

[ScottyPiffen745]

and this is false also.

there was another reason given.

recall prop joe's pitch.

Who wasn't in the co-op, then?

Pitch to who, Marlo or Stringer?

 

[Teknique310]

shit happens.

with as many groups that are paying tax under that umbrella, there's going to be what you like to think of as "spillage".

they square things up down the road. always do, 1 way or another.

Spillage is a part of business.

 

[geechiedan]

all caps, exclamation points? really. why so emotional?

i already acknowledged it was an obstacle. everyone here agrees on that.

you feel that stringer bell's expedient choice was a good one. we see you are strongly devoted to that position. doesn't mean it's the correct one.

stringer bell's choice was not prudent or wise.

it wasn't an obstacle it was the only choice. you said: the option was to give avon barksdale more time to find a solution.

people like to frame avon and marlo as nothing more than thugs, but they both were calculating problem solvers.
this isn't rocket science, its not even complex business...

you find a supplier, built a rapport so they feel safe to deal with you and get their product. How avon was going to do that from a jail cell especially when his other connects (his references in a sense) were too skittish to deal with him is the question. Meanwhile what weak shit they already have isn't selling and the crew is drying up.

On the one hand its really silly to have this debate because the show went the way it did so that certain things can play out in certain ways.

In a real world scenario avon would have found a supplier eventually..gotten out of jail..stopped prop joes supply and that would have effectively killed the idea of a co-op.

But the way the show played out avon never found that supplier so they had to deal with joe in any case.

yes. 1 bitch who didn't like to get his hands dirty (and manipulated people to do his bidding) pulled a jedi mind trick on a weak and malleable mind.

c'mon son...eveyone was manipulating everyone and everyone got burned

 

[Djmarkxr7]

People want to cap for Stringer but the fact he could not look for a supplier on his own should tell how much he really knew about the business. Dude is in the drug business and cannot even begin to look for a supplier, he gotta go to Avon. FOH...

Not caping for Stringer, dude was a fool, but he was shown to morph into a fool, not to be a fool from day one as cranrab suggests, reason could be entirely because he was never left to his own devices, thing is we were never shown this, Avon and Stringer start out and build together and while Avon was clearly the boss and was made for the game, it is also shown that he clearly valued Stringer's input, EVERYTHING went thru Stringer and almost every decision was discussed between the two before being passed on.

Their symbiotic relationship was only changed when Avon went to prison, peeps should remember that Stringer never spent a single day behind bars.