I have and he's not bad. He's really thin so he's got a lot of filling out to do but his in ring style is very much like his dad's.
THE WRESTLING THREAD: HELL HAS FROZE OVER JOHN CENA HAS GONE FULL HEEL
- Thread starter ArsenalCannon357
- Start date
I have and he's not bad. He's really thin so he's got a lot of filling out to do but his in ring style is very much like his dad's.
JIM CORNETTE RESPONDS TO ERIC BISCHOFF'S COMMENTS ON THERE BEING NO 'DRAWING' TALENTS IN THE LAST DECADE, BISCHOFF CALLING ROH A 'BACKYARD VANITY' GROUP AND MORE
by Mike Johnson @ 9:48 PM on 8/14/2010
Jim Cornette responded to a fan question on his official website at www.JimCornette.com asking him his take on Eric Bischoff's comments on talents not drawing in the last decade, Ring of Honor and more:
Traditionally, a guy who "draws money" means a guy who, when you have put him in main events or important programs, sells more tickets (or PPV buys these days) than other people who have been in a same/similar spot, and has done this not just once or twice but on a consistent basis. There used to be dozens and dozens of top guys who "drew money" in the territory days. Now, there are a few, and they ARE all in WWE. The problem is, as Bischoff either doesn't want to admit or is too clueless to know, is that the way people like him have changed the business is the reason, not lack of talent on the young guy's parts.
In the territory days, the promoters didn't care WHO drew as long as someone did, they would push anyone they thought could draw, all their businesses were reasonably healthy, and they hadn't exposed everything/given people such bad booking and silly shit so that when angles were shot, they actually increased business. Now, these young guys are seldom put in the spot to draw to begin with because the "stars" have guaranteed contracts, and if you're paying someone main event money you keep them in the main event, so few get the CHANCE to prove they can draw money (It happens some in WWE, and rarely in TNA)--it doesn't apply in TNA to begin with as some of the biggest draws of the past 20 years work/have worked there and still haven't sold tickets/PPV's/increased ratings, because the booking and company structure itself is incompetant.
Does that mean those guys "can't draw" because the company they work for has lost tens of millions and still doesn't make a profit of any real size? Also, since it's been 10 years since anyone in pro wrestling drew BIG money, not because of the talent but because of the shitty booking and poorly run companies, as well as the fact that WWE and TNA have made angles/big matches mostly meaningless by doing them too often, badly, and telling people they're all phony to begin with, someone has to be blamed--are these companies going to blame themselves, or their children or families, or "writers"? No--they blame the talent. Companies like ROH struggle because WWE and TNA have made LESS people, not MORE, interested in wrestling.
He also shows his ignorance of his current residence in a glass house--if ROH is a "backyard vanity project for marks", what is TNA, since TNA has lost tens of millions MORE than ROH has lost in the exact same time in business, doesn't that mean that ROH is behind WWE but ahead of TNA? Do we grade by gross revenue or total profit? WWE has created an environment where WWE draws as a show, like the Harlem Globetrotters or Holiday on Ice, and the stars on a particular card mean less than they ever have.
To truly have guys in the business who "draw money" again, we would have to pitch out the dreck like Bischoff and others who don't respect or understand wrestling, who think they are Emmy award winning "real" TV producers, ditch the comedy writers like Russo and Stephanie McMahon's comic reading college kids, and push wrestlers who win, lose and chase championships. People will watch what wrestling is now on TV for free, and a few hundred thousand might buy the pPV's, but ticket sales for wrestling will NEVER approach what they once were without taking those steps.
That is why all the guys today who are actually draws, who sell live event tickets and PPV's in big numbers, almost all work for Dana White, the most successful pro wrestling promoter in the world. He just calls it UFC. Bischoff sees no similarity bewtween MMA/UFC and pro wrestling, which is why he is doomed to be a guy that was successful for 2 years out of a 20 year career. BTW, what other executive in any company actively dislikes, disagrees with, ignores and insults the 10% of people who are most dedicated to/spend the most money on their product or service?
All of his "crossover to mainstream culture" bullshit is because people like him, Hogan, McMahon, Russo, etc are all embarrassed to admit they are in the wrestling business (and the business hates to admit it has them) and they all want to be "real" stars--only the Rock has done that, but I wish all I named would leave our business to try!
This is just my offhand impression of this nitwit's comments, but I think you're wasting time trying to quiz Eric Bischoff on anything other than a good hair dye, a nice tanbed, a well-fitting set of dentures and the current price of a 3 way at the Gold Club. Feel free to repost any/all of this if you want.
Jim Cornette
by Mike Johnson @ 9:48 PM on 8/14/2010
Jim Cornette responded to a fan question on his official website at www.JimCornette.com asking him his take on Eric Bischoff's comments on talents not drawing in the last decade, Ring of Honor and more:
Traditionally, a guy who "draws money" means a guy who, when you have put him in main events or important programs, sells more tickets (or PPV buys these days) than other people who have been in a same/similar spot, and has done this not just once or twice but on a consistent basis. There used to be dozens and dozens of top guys who "drew money" in the territory days. Now, there are a few, and they ARE all in WWE. The problem is, as Bischoff either doesn't want to admit or is too clueless to know, is that the way people like him have changed the business is the reason, not lack of talent on the young guy's parts.
In the territory days, the promoters didn't care WHO drew as long as someone did, they would push anyone they thought could draw, all their businesses were reasonably healthy, and they hadn't exposed everything/given people such bad booking and silly shit so that when angles were shot, they actually increased business. Now, these young guys are seldom put in the spot to draw to begin with because the "stars" have guaranteed contracts, and if you're paying someone main event money you keep them in the main event, so few get the CHANCE to prove they can draw money (It happens some in WWE, and rarely in TNA)--it doesn't apply in TNA to begin with as some of the biggest draws of the past 20 years work/have worked there and still haven't sold tickets/PPV's/increased ratings, because the booking and company structure itself is incompetant.
Does that mean those guys "can't draw" because the company they work for has lost tens of millions and still doesn't make a profit of any real size? Also, since it's been 10 years since anyone in pro wrestling drew BIG money, not because of the talent but because of the shitty booking and poorly run companies, as well as the fact that WWE and TNA have made angles/big matches mostly meaningless by doing them too often, badly, and telling people they're all phony to begin with, someone has to be blamed--are these companies going to blame themselves, or their children or families, or "writers"? No--they blame the talent. Companies like ROH struggle because WWE and TNA have made LESS people, not MORE, interested in wrestling.
He also shows his ignorance of his current residence in a glass house--if ROH is a "backyard vanity project for marks", what is TNA, since TNA has lost tens of millions MORE than ROH has lost in the exact same time in business, doesn't that mean that ROH is behind WWE but ahead of TNA? Do we grade by gross revenue or total profit? WWE has created an environment where WWE draws as a show, like the Harlem Globetrotters or Holiday on Ice, and the stars on a particular card mean less than they ever have.
To truly have guys in the business who "draw money" again, we would have to pitch out the dreck like Bischoff and others who don't respect or understand wrestling, who think they are Emmy award winning "real" TV producers, ditch the comedy writers like Russo and Stephanie McMahon's comic reading college kids, and push wrestlers who win, lose and chase championships. People will watch what wrestling is now on TV for free, and a few hundred thousand might buy the pPV's, but ticket sales for wrestling will NEVER approach what they once were without taking those steps.
That is why all the guys today who are actually draws, who sell live event tickets and PPV's in big numbers, almost all work for Dana White, the most successful pro wrestling promoter in the world. He just calls it UFC. Bischoff sees no similarity bewtween MMA/UFC and pro wrestling, which is why he is doomed to be a guy that was successful for 2 years out of a 20 year career. BTW, what other executive in any company actively dislikes, disagrees with, ignores and insults the 10% of people who are most dedicated to/spend the most money on their product or service?
All of his "crossover to mainstream culture" bullshit is because people like him, Hogan, McMahon, Russo, etc are all embarrassed to admit they are in the wrestling business (and the business hates to admit it has them) and they all want to be "real" stars--only the Rock has done that, but I wish all I named would leave our business to try!
This is just my offhand impression of this nitwit's comments, but I think you're wasting time trying to quiz Eric Bischoff on anything other than a good hair dye, a nice tanbed, a well-fitting set of dentures and the current price of a 3 way at the Gold Club. Feel free to repost any/all of this if you want.
Jim Cornette
^^^As usual Jim Cornette is on point with his comments and criticisms. Monthly PPVs really affected the wrestling business negatively. Instead of getting long standing feuds that ultimately had a highly anticipated payoff we get 2 and 3 week feuds that feature some special match before any real heat has built up between the opponents. And then we get everybody fighting each other just because so it's rare to find a rivalry that we as wrestling fans have looked forward to.
Right now the ROH model is killing the TNA model in terms of establishing credible wrestlers,rivalries and keeping people relevant with some sort of momentum. TNA decided to trot their voting a couple of months ago. And the people voted for Desmond Wolfe.Instead of building on that and continuing to establish him as a title contender they jobbed him out every chance they got, did the lame storyline with Abyss and Chelsea, and have his main story be the inability for the 2 of them to get along.
Right now the ROH model is killing the TNA model in terms of establishing credible wrestlers,rivalries and keeping people relevant with some sort of momentum. TNA decided to trot their voting a couple of months ago. And the people voted for Desmond Wolfe.Instead of building on that and continuing to establish him as a title contender they jobbed him out every chance they got, did the lame storyline with Abyss and Chelsea, and have his main story be the inability for the 2 of them to get along.
Yeah, it's funny that TNA wouldn't even listen to their own fan base and try do so something with Wolfe. He could have been a home grown TNA star if they only had a clue as to how to make one. They have plenty of good talent, but only if you were a name during the 90's or just got fired from WWE will you truly get a shot there. TNA has been around for 8 years now and should be so much further along than it is.
Next ppv can be Cena vs everybody else in the WWE. 
Cena is invincible....
Cena is invincible....
I remember D'lo Brown saying on show that he co-hosted for awhile that it takes effort to get somebody over but once somebody is over it doesn't hurt them to lose.And Jericho agreed with that on the same show in an interview about 2 months later when he said that he could lose tonite, last week and the week before that but that if he won the World title tomorrow nite it would still be believable because of how over he is.
I wish that the WWE would use that rationale with Cena because Nexus needed the win a hell of a lot more than he did.But I guess that they didn't learn anything from the invasion angles.
And it is good to see Danielson back. They better do something with him.
What does cena winning do for this storyline? I'm glad danielson is back because he never should've gotten fired in the first place, but the problem with this ppv is that it highlighted the wwe's main problem. They really don't know when to pull the trigger on guys, nexus should've won but vince felt the need to "send the fans home happy" and now nexus will have to work hard to gain their momentum back.
I have to give credit for PWInsider.com for saying Danielson was looking to be the guy but WWE.com actually put up his return on the site before he debuted. WTF is that?
Nexus shouldn't have loss but they had to since they acted like them winning would have been dire. If Nexus was to win, they would actually have to show us what would have happened next.
On Cornette
He's going to be helping Delirious as booker for ROH since Adam Pearce and ROH have split.
And he's dead on in the comments I posted. How many times has TNA done ladder matches since January? How many Ultimate X matches? Monster's Ball? When I see someone tell me Vince Russo is worth a damn as a booker, his overuse of gimmick matches is one of his biggest weaknesses.
Seeing as he would have to leapfrog over Miz, Orton, Cena, and HHH for a WWE title run on Raw, I think you might be on to something with him moving to Smackdown and chasing that title. On that show he can have some great matches with, Jack Swagger, Rey, Christian and CM Punk and maybe a good one with the Undertaker. If they were going to have Nexus lose, Bryan should have been the last guy standing and not Cena.
And Miz has been threatening Sheamus since he won MitB and when Sheamus is out on his face, he doesn't show. WTF?
Didn't expect to see Bryan Danielson back. Makes you wonder was he really "fired" from jump. But he probably was. Lucky that dude came back after that shit.
They need to move Edge off RAW ASAP. Maybe even Jericho. They're just being wasted on Raw. How can a brand that has Edge and Jericho on it have Randy Orton and Shaemus fighting for a title?
They need to move Edge off RAW ASAP. Maybe even Jericho. They're just being wasted on Raw. How can a brand that has Edge and Jericho on it have Randy Orton and Shaemus fighting for a title?
I see what you're saying but based on the last time Miz threatened to use the MITB the match can't start if the other person isn't conscious so he would have had to wait until they brought Sheamus to consciousness.And then he would have had to get him in the ring but this is the WWE and things making sense is valued only so much to their writers.
Paul Heyman On TNA: "They're Not Ready For Me"
Posted on 08.16.10 | TNA News | Send news: News@24Wrestling.com In an interview with MMA Hour Live, Paul Heyman talked a bit about working with TNA, saying the following:
"They're not ready for me. They're not there yet. I kind of have self-justified my own interest in TNA as a network of stock and ownership. I left pro wrestling in December 2006 and I haven't done one shoot DVD, one convention appearance, one cameo. I haven't done anything on wrestling."
Heyman confirmed that TNA has reached out to him many times in the last year but he didn't take it seriously until Dixie Carter contacted him and offered him potential ownership points and stock, as well as potential side projects with Spike TV. He concluded though that they weren't ready for his ideas, particularly using things from MMA to influence wrestling. He also said that TNA is not looking long term and only wants short term solutions and that they don't have their own vision for what they want to be.
Heyman added that he would get rid of everyone over 40 in TNA if he was in charge, saying their place is to be used for promotional events, autograph signings, and video games, but not as the core, noting that TNA's focus seems to be on former ECW guys in their 40s, Hulk Hogan, and Ric Flair.
"If you were over 40, I'd chop your f***ing head off. I want a guy who is entering the prime of his career and shape him and mold him."
"Imagine if all they did the entire show was promote the Beer Money vs. Motor City Machineguns match and had Ric Flair, Hulk Hogan and the ECW guys saying they needed to see that match and said these guys are the future now. Then, if you put that match in the main event - as opposed to the middle of the card with no follow-up - and produce and present them as the main event. Then, if 'you buy this product, this is the progressive type of presentation we are going to present to you.' Instead, you have Hulk Hogan in his 50s thanking ECW guys in their 40s before the ECW guys are beat up by a group led by Ric Flair in his 60s."
Posted on 08.16.10 | TNA News | Send news: News@24Wrestling.com In an interview with MMA Hour Live, Paul Heyman talked a bit about working with TNA, saying the following:
"They're not ready for me. They're not there yet. I kind of have self-justified my own interest in TNA as a network of stock and ownership. I left pro wrestling in December 2006 and I haven't done one shoot DVD, one convention appearance, one cameo. I haven't done anything on wrestling."
Heyman confirmed that TNA has reached out to him many times in the last year but he didn't take it seriously until Dixie Carter contacted him and offered him potential ownership points and stock, as well as potential side projects with Spike TV. He concluded though that they weren't ready for his ideas, particularly using things from MMA to influence wrestling. He also said that TNA is not looking long term and only wants short term solutions and that they don't have their own vision for what they want to be.
Heyman added that he would get rid of everyone over 40 in TNA if he was in charge, saying their place is to be used for promotional events, autograph signings, and video games, but not as the core, noting that TNA's focus seems to be on former ECW guys in their 40s, Hulk Hogan, and Ric Flair.
"If you were over 40, I'd chop your f***ing head off. I want a guy who is entering the prime of his career and shape him and mold him."
"Imagine if all they did the entire show was promote the Beer Money vs. Motor City Machineguns match and had Ric Flair, Hulk Hogan and the ECW guys saying they needed to see that match and said these guys are the future now. Then, if you put that match in the main event - as opposed to the middle of the card with no follow-up - and produce and present them as the main event. Then, if 'you buy this product, this is the progressive type of presentation we are going to present to you.' Instead, you have Hulk Hogan in his 50s thanking ECW guys in their 40s before the ECW guys are beat up by a group led by Ric Flair in his 60s."
^^^ Heyman knows what he is talking about. I think the old timers should start their own Fed personally.
I believe i said a while back on this forum that vince would find a way to fuck up a great angle, Summerslam and last night's raw confirmed he has indeed fucked up a great angle. Super Cena two night in a row is pathetic and now it's just comical, nexus is no longer a threat and have all been buried.
Superman Cena is some bullshit. Nexus is dead. Vince fucks up again. I think we both said it and sadly we were right
I agree with Heyman on this for the most part but I hope he doesn't include Kurt Angle in with Sting, Hogan, Flair (who should be kept on as a manager of Fortune), and Kevin Nash. Angle's still having great matches with everyone and should be used as the guy to make new stars (he would be but they fucked up Morgan and Wolfe's pushes after Angle elevated them). Jeff Jarrett's still having good matches too but he's accepted a secondary role and that's where he should be.
But while they're showing Sting, Hulk, and Nash to the door, send Russo and Bischoff too. Bischoff adds nothing and Russo's been doing the same storylines and gimmicks for over ten years. Time's up for those guys. Hell, Adam Pearce just left ROH, let him come in and book with Dreamer and Bubba Ray if they can't work out something with Heyman.
One thing
How big of a jobber is Rick Steamboat that he was on the sideline for months after Jake Roberts ddt'ed him on the floor years ago and John "Super" Cena can come back and beat two guys in a match after taking the same move? Cena might be the strongest wrestler EVER.
How big of a jobber is Rick Steamboat that he was on the sideline for months after Jake Roberts ddt'ed him on the floor years ago and John "Super" Cena can come back and beat two guys in a match after taking the same move? Cena might be the strongest wrestler EVER.
I keep seeing this argument getting brought up. It's bullshit...to US (meaning, our generation). But it's important to remember WWE since the mid-2000s hasn't been gearing their product for us. It's being booked for the kids that come to shows to, unfortunately, see Cena. They're the ones, apparently (as t-shirt sales and audience cheering shows) digging the super Cena shit. Considering that, I don't think comparing this to what happened to Steamboat (which I'm sure none of the fans that WWE is gearing the product towards are aware of, nor asked for the Steamboat DVD for their birthdays) back in the 80s is a good comparison.
I had hopes for the Nexus angle the first night it happened (looking back, it STILL is one of the best trigger angles I can think of in recent times. Really EXCELLENT how they set things up for that night), but now I can see WWE officially let me down with this angle.
Basically, people like you, me, and all the other adults who grew up with WWF & NWA/WCW sound like a bunch of complaining old men, glorifying the "good old days." That's the sad reality.
I had the same thought when I saw Summerslam.
I keep seeing this argument getting brought up. It's bullshit...to US (meaning, our generation). But it's important to remember WWE since the mid-2000s hasn't been gearing their product for us. It's being booked for the kids that come to shows to, unfortunately, see Cena. They're the ones, apparently (as t-shirt sales and audience cheering shows) digging the super Cena shit. Considering that, I don't think comparing this to what happened to Steamboat (which I'm sure none of the fans that WWE is gearing the product towards are aware of, nor asked for the Steamboat DVD for their birthdays) back in the 80s is a good comparison.
I had hopes for the Nexus angle the first night it happened (looking back, it STILL is one of the best trigger angles I can think of in recent times. Really EXCELLENT how they set things up for that night), but now I can see WWE officially let me down with this angle.
Basically, people like you, me, and all the other adults who grew up with WWF & NWA/WCW sound like a bunch of complaining old men, glorifying the "good old days." That's the sad reality.
Yup we living in the past when wrestling was good. Now it's marketed to 7-16 yr olds who dont know any better.
Indeed
Ah well, at least there is still Chikara, Ring of Honor, and Dragon Gate USA when I need to watch an American wrestling promotion done right these days.
Don't even get me started on several Japanese promotions
Indeed
Ah well, at least there is still Chikara, Ring of Honor, and Dragon Gate USA when I need to watch an American wrestling promotion done right these days.
Don't even get me started on several Japanese promotions
Yep it's not hard to find good wrestling but sadly the wwe is like madden both in terms of tv and the SVR games, it's the same old shit with no signs of improvement.
I keep seeing this argument getting brought up. It's bullshit...to US (meaning, our generation). But it's important to remember WWE since the mid-2000s hasn't been gearing their product for us. It's being booked for the kids that come to shows to, unfortunately, see Cena. They're the ones, apparently (as t-shirt sales and audience cheering shows) digging the super Cena shit. Considering that, I don't think comparing this to what happened to Steamboat (which I'm sure none of the fans that WWE is gearing the product towards are aware of, nor asked for the Steamboat DVD for their birthdays) back in the 80s is a good comparison.
I had hopes for the Nexus angle the first night it happened (looking back, it STILL is one of the best trigger angles I can think of in recent times. Really EXCELLENT how they set things up for that night), but now I can see WWE officially let me down with this angle.
Basically, people like you, me, and all the other adults who grew up with WWF & NWA/WCW sound like a bunch of complaining old men, glorifying the "good old days." That's the sad reality.
I can see what you're saying but I reject that excuse because when WWF did the Steamboat DDT on the floor (which was legit)it was during the Hogan era when they were really going for kids. If you were raised on Crockett or World Class or Florida or the AWA, WWF was "cartoon wrestling". But they still did serious things and paid attention to booking details.
I hated Hogan but he sold the lamest Earthquake splash ever (I know he was going on vacation but still
). Undertaker beat Hogan by piledriving him on a chair. In the 80s they were marketing to kids but knew they needed to do something to get the adults who actually pay for stuff. They've shown they can market to kids and still have good angles and matches now they just need to do it.
This is the niche TNA should be trying to fill and hopefully they're on the path to doing that with the Fortune beatdown of the ECW alumni. I doubt it because it'll still be written and run by Russo, Hogan, and Bischoff.
That's why I spend money on ROH and Dragon Gate USA in hopes they'll at least give people an alternative to the mindless nonsense pushed on national tv.
I need to start watching those other promotions. WWE would get better if there was some real competition. I thought TNA would be the way but Dixie is clueless. Some1 needs to come along with deep pockets like Ted Turner and start up a good promotion. I hear there is a promotion in Florida starting up.
I'm sure Del can point you in the right direction for some CHIKARA wrestling and Dragon Gate USA has 20 dollar ppvs on certain On Demand systems.
The word on that Florida start up is they have some deep pockets (I don't know if they're Turner deep)behind them. TNA didn't keep Scorpio around after Hardcore Justice because he's committed to that group already.
I wanna see a gif of Cena wearing a Superman cape sliding into the ring to beat the 10 count at Summerslam.
Fam...that nigga did that shit last night on RAW.
I was like WTF?!?!
Back then the DDT was considered a devastating move that consistently could finish a mathc and Jake the Snake had the DDT perfected. Now the DDT is slightly above a bodyslam and below a spinebuster that can stun an opponent but can rarely finish somebody off.